Clause
27Extension
to Northern Ireland of provisions of SOCAP
2005
Lady
Hermon: I beg to move amendment No. 31, in clause 27, page
18, line 27, at end
insert— ‘(1A) Section 112 of
the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 (power to direct a
person to leave a place) extends to Northern
Ireland.'. I
am delighted to speak to yet another miscellaneous provision in the
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The clause covers for
the first time a subject that has not been mentioned—the
extension to Northern Ireland of the provisions of the Serious
Organised Crime and Police Act 2005. The amendment is fairly obviously
a probing amendment. It proposes extending to Northern Ireland section
112 of that Act.
5.50
pm Sitting
suspended for a Division in the
House.
6.5
pm On
resuming—
The
Chairman: Before Lady Hermon resumes, I shall say that I
intend to adjourn the Committee for a short period for a dinner break
at 7 o’clock. I hope that that might focus
minds.
Lady
Hermon: I apologise, Mr. Atkinson, if I appeared to
hesitate earlier. I had not heard the Division Bell because I was so
excited by the anticipation of what the Minister would say
aboutthe delay in extending to Northern Ireland sections of
the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, and in particular
sections 60 to 67, 69 and 70, which are belatedly being extended by
clause 27. I have
considerable concern about that point. The Minister, who is a diligent
Minister and takes his responsibilities seriously, will have noted that
immediately before the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill came
before the House there was yet another report from the highly respected
and regarded Independent Monitoring Commission, which he and his
colleagues are so keen to quote to us. They will doubtless do so again
before the end of the
week. I shall quote
from the November 2004 IMC report, which I recommend to all members of
the Committee if they have not already read it. Paragraph 5.5, on page
27, is pertinent to discussion of the Serious Organised Crime and
Police Act. It
states: “The
Northern Ireland Organised Crime Task Force has stated that there are
some 230 organised criminal gangs believed to be operating in Northern
Ireland.” I shall repeat
that: 230 organised criminal
gangs. “We have
been advised that about 60 per cent. or some 140 have paramilitary
links and that, of the top 25 criminal gangs involved in international
activities operating in early 2004, 17, some two-thirds, had
paramilitary
associations.” The next
sentence is the most striking on the entire
page. “Seldom
in the developed world has this high proportion of the most serious
criminals been associated with groups originating in terrorism, with an
organisational structure and discipline, and the experience of
planning, learning and conducting sophisticated clandestine operations,
methods of handling money, and with traditions of extreme
violence.” That was the
report as recently as November
2004. I was astounded
that, in 2005, despite that report having highlighted the seriousness
of the situation in terms of organised criminals and the gangs that
operate in Northern Ireland—let me remind all members of the
Committee that Northern Ireland is a small part of this United
Kingdom—many provisions of the Serious Organised Crime and
Police Act were not immediately extended to Northern Ireland by way of
primary legislation. It concerns me greatly that now, two years later,
clause 27 belatedly extends to Northern Ireland only sections 60 to 67,
69 and 70. On Second
Reading, the Secretary of State described the chief purpose of the
Bill. He
said: “The Bill
will chiefly allow maximum flexibility in the arrangements for the
future devolution of policing and justice functions to the
Assembly”.—[Official Report, 13 March 2006; Vol.
443, c. 1167.] Had it not been
for their overriding purpose of devolving to the Assembly the decision
about when it wishes to take responsibility for policing and justice,
when in heaven’s name would the Government ever have got round
to extending to Northern Ireland the important provisions of the
Serious Organised Crime and Police Act, which ought to have been
extended at the time of that Act in
2005? The amendment
would extend to Northern Ireland section 112 of the 2005 Act, which
deals with the
ability of a constable to order a person to leave an area. For example,
there has been a series of high-profile cases in Northern Ireland in
which men—and let us assume that the vast majority of people who
commit domestic violence are men—have been released, had their
names included on the sex offenders register there, and gone on to
commit serious offences. My amendment would extend to constables in
Northern Ireland the section’s powers in, say, the case of a
convicted criminal who had been told to stay away from the victim of
sexual abuse. The key question is when the Minister intends to extend
the other key sections of the Act to Northern Ireland. When will the
Government get their minds around to that? I shall listen intently to
the Minister’s
response. Mr.
Woodward: I welcome the hon. Lady’s amendment and
the debate that she has raised. Unfortunately, we are not able to
accept the amendment, but perhaps I may crave her indulgence for a
moment, so that she will understand why—and why, none the less,
we are interested in her
ideas. The powers
referred to in the amendment are part of a package of exclusion powers
that include exclusion orders and, where appropriate, electronic
monitoring, all of which, as the hon. Lady recognises, are available in
England and Wales under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005
and previous legislation, but not currently in Northern Ireland.
Although the amendment is well intended, it would, even if technically
correct, raise practical issues about how to apply it.
At present the necessary
legislative building blocks are not in place in Northern Ireland to
allow us to adopt the amendment as it stands. To extend section 112 of
the 2005 Act to Northern Ireland now could require the creation of a
much more substantive package of sentencing powers in the Bill, which
is not what the Bill was designed for. My hon. Friend the Minister of
State is now carrying out a review of the sentencing framework for
Northern Ireland, including consideration of, for example, electronic
monitoring. We hope to publish proposals for separate measures in due
course, and in that context we shall of course carefully consider what
the hon. Lady has said.
Lady
Hermon: I appreciate the assurance that the Minister has
given. I posed two questions, and I accept the answer about why the
amendment cannot now be accepted, but my first question was why the
provisions that clause 27 extends to Northern Ireland were not extended
to it when the Act was first
passed.
Mr.
Woodward: Because at the time the exclusion orders were
being developed for England and Wales, Northern Ireland was in the
process of a criminal justice review, in the wake of the Belfast
agreement. It was therefore deemed inappropriate to proceed with those
powers for Northern Ireland. Things have clearly moved a long way since
then. That is one reason for the review being conducted by my hon.
Friend the Minister of State.
We are very mindful of the fact
that the success of some of the relevant powers here could apply in
Northern Ireland, and we are taking that into
consideration. We do not think that this Bill is the right vehicle for a
comprehensive set of measures, which would be necessary in the case of
exclusion powers and exclusion orders. There is a better place to do
that in light of the fuller sentence review. That is why, given those
assurances and the fact that we are conducting the review, I ask the
hon. Lady to withdraw the amendment. 6.15
pm
Lady
Hermon: I am sorry that I seem to have given the Minister
the wrong impression in my intervention. I warmly accept his
assurances. I am surprised, as we draw towards the end of our
consideration of the Bill, to have had an indication that a
Minister—one, at least—has been listening to our
suggestions as to how it can be improved for the sake of the people of
Northern Ireland. My
intervention concerned the extension, under this clause, of the SOCAP
provisions to Northern Ireland. The investigatory powers of the
Director of Public Prosecutions—the powers spelled out in
sections 60 to 67 and 69 and 70—were available to be extended to
Northern Ireland in 2005. My question was, when on earth would they
have been extended to Northern Ireland had it not been for the fact
that the Government were adhering to a commitment to Sinn Fein to give
an indication that they would devolve policing and justice to the
Assembly? That was
the chief purpose of the Bill, but it has turned into a ragbag of all
sorts of things. Of course I welcome the extension of some parts of
SOCAP to Northern Ireland, albeit so late in the day. I am just sorry
that the Minister did not take the opportunity to explain to me why the
measure was so delayed, when it was meant to concern just the
DPP—not exclusion zones; not legislation that did not extend to
Northern Ireland; and not the review that is currently being undertaken
by the Minister of
State. However, the
Minister has given me an undertaking that a review is being conducted
and that he will look positively at our suggestions for further action.
With those assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
amendment.
Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Clause 27 ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Schedule 3 agreed
to. Clauses 28
to 31 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Schedule
4Minor
and consequential amendments
Amendments made: No. 16,
in schedule 4, page 36, line 25, leave out ‘(1)(e)' and insert
‘(1B)(a)'. No.
17, in schedule 4, page 37, line 2, leave out ‘56' and insert
‘58'.—[Mr.
Hanson.] Schedule
4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule
5
Repeals and
revocations
Mr.
Hanson: I beg to move amendment No. 18, in schedule 5,
page 38, leave out lines 26 to 30.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
Government amendment No.
15
Mr.
Hanson: These are minor amendments relating to the removal
of clauses 10 to 12, which was considered on the Floor of the House
last week.
Amendment agreed
to. Schedule 5,
as amended, agreed to.
Clause
32Commencement Amendment
made: No. 15, in clause 32, page 21, line 21, leave out
‘sections 10 to 13' and insert ‘section
13'.—[Mr.
Hanson.] Clause
32, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
33Extent Amendment
made: No. 32, in clause 33, page 22, line 4, leave out subsection
(2) and insert— ‘(2) But the
amendments and repeals made by Schedule 3 (and Schedule 5 so far as
relating to that Schedule) extend to England and Wales and Northern
Ireland
only.'. Clause
33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Clause 34
ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Question
proposed, That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the
House.
Mr.
Hanson: On a point of order, Mr. Atkinson. On behalf of
the Committee, I thank you for your couple of hours in the Chair this
afternoon and your co-Chairman, Mr. Taylor, for his efforts this
morning. I must confess that I am pleased that we managed to complete
our proceedings on the Bill in Committee today. I thank the Clerks for
their patience and hard work, and I thank our colleagues in
Hansard for their ever present recording of our utterings and
mutterings. I thank my colleague the Under-Secretary, and the Whip, my
hon. Friend the Member for Gedling(Mr. Coaker), for their
contributions. Finally, most of all, I thank my hon. Friends, the
members of the Committee, for their unfailing support, patience and
commitment, and their renewed interest in the events and affairs of
Northern
Ireland.
Mr.
Robertson: Further to that point of order,Mr.
Atkinson. I echo the Minister’s thanks to you and your
co-Chairman, Mr. Taylor, and to your staff. I thank my colleagues who
have contributed today. The Minister referred, I think, to the silent
majority when he thanked his Back Benchers, but it is always
interesting to take part in these debates, and I look forward to
further debates this
week.
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