The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:Chairman:
Mrs.
Janet Dean †
Ainger,
Nick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)†
Crausby,
Mr. David (Bolton, North-East)
(Lab) †
Evennett,
Mr. David (Bexleyheath and Crayford)
(Con) †
Gillan,
Mrs. Cheryl (Chesham and Amersham)
(Con) †
Havard,
Mr. Dai (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab) †
Irranca-Davies,
Huw (Ogmore) (Lab) †
James,
Mrs. Siân C. (Swansea, East)
(Lab) †
Jones,
Mr. David (Clwyd, West)
(Con) Leigh,
Mr. Edward (Gainsborough)
(Con) †
Llwyd,
Mr. Elfyn (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
(PC) †
Meacher,
Mr. Michael (Oldham, West and Royton)
(Lab) †
Öpik,
Lembit (Montgomeryshire)
(LD) †
Penrose,
John (Weston-super-Mare)
(Con) †
Stuart,
Ms Gisela (Birmingham, Edgbaston)
(Lab) †
Tami,
Mark (Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab) †
Turner,
Dr. Desmond (Brighton, Kemptown)
(Lab) †
Vis,
Dr. Rudi (Finchley and Golders Green)
(Lab) Tom Healey, Committee
Clerk † attended the
Committee First
Standing Committee on Delegated
LegislationMonday 22
May
2006[Mrs.
Janet Dean in the
Chair]Draft National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 20064.30
pm The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Nick
Ainger): I beg to
move, That the
Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Transfer of Functions) Order
2006. I hope that I
shall not delay the Committee long: both aspects of the order are
non-contentious. The order must be made by Order in Council following
approval of the draft order by both Houses of Parliament. Section 22 of
the Government of Wales Act 1998 enables a function of a Minister of
the Crown to be transferred to the National Assembly for Wales on
receipt of that approval. That is why this short and, I hope,
non-contentious order is before the
Committee. The
Wales Office has worked closely with the relevant
Departments—the Department for Communities and Local Government,
which was formerly the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and the
Department for Education and Skills—and, of course, the National
Assembly. Policy has been agreed by all parties. Two transfers will be
effected or facilitated by the House approving the order. The first
function included in this omnibus order is the transfer of powers under
section 1 of the Education (Fees and Awards) Act 1983. That section
enables the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to make
regulations that allow certain institutions to charge higher fees for
students who cannot demonstrate a connection with the United Kingdom
than for those who can. The change will enable the Assembly to make
regulations regarding the charging of fees at universities and further
education establishments for foreign students in relation to
Wales. The functions
under section 2 of the 1983 Act were devolved to the Assembly in 1999
and make similar provision for post-compulsory education awards by
local education authorities. The split in responsibilities has made it
increasingly complex to draft regulations under the 1983 Act, with some
elements made by the Assembly and others by the Secretary of State.
Given the devolution of student support policy to the Assembly from the
2006-07 academic year, it is no longer appropriate for the powers to
remain with the Secretary of State. The transfer will facilitate the
creation of policy and improve accountability for both the Assembly and
the DFES. The second,
and more significant, transfer to be effected by the order is the
transfer to the Assembly of those fire safety functions that at present
remain with the UK Government. The case for the transfer has its
genesis in the making of the Regulatory Reform (Fire
Safety) Order 2005, which is a reform of all current fire safety law
contained in more than 100 pieces of fire safety legislation. The
substance of the regulatory reform order comes into force on 1 October
2006. The main emphasis of the reform will be on fire prevention and a
regime of fire risk assessment by the person responsible for
non-domestic premises, to identify, mitigate or remove any risk from
fire to persons in or around the
premises. The Fire and
Rescue Services Act 2004 came into force in Wales in November 2004. It
conferred powers relating to fire and rescue authorities in Wales on
the National Assembly for Wales. The transfer of functions order is
consistent with that policy of devolution and will enable the National
Assembly to act across the range of the regulatory reform order
provisions in relation to fire safety in non-domestic premises. I am
talking about a power to make regulations about fire precautions; a
power to authorise persons as enforcing authority for certain premises;
a power to issue guidance to enforcing authorities; a power to
determine disputes; and a duty to ensure that guidance is available.
The order will give the National Assembly for Wales a level of
responsibility comparable to that which will exist in England from 1
October 2006. I urge the Committee to approve the
order. 4.35
pm Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I thank the
Minister for clarifying the order. He will be glad to know that I agree
that this is a relatively uncontroversial transfer of functions to the
Assembly, and I shall not place any impediment in the way of the
order’s speedy scrutiny. It will enable the Assembly to
legislate more effectively on both fire safety and the charging of
tuition fees to students without the required connection to the United
Kingdom. The 2005
order reforms all current fire safety law, bringing together more than
100 separate pieces of fire safety legislation which have gradually
built up in response to new incidents. As the Minister said, the order
concentrates on non-domestic property, andthe bulk of its
provisions will come into force on1 October. The emphasis of
the reform is on fire prevention. There will be a duty on the person
responsible for non-domestic premises to identify, mitigate and/or
remove any risk from fire to those within the premises. There will also
be a requirement for that person to carry out a fire risk assessment on
the property. The
devolution of the responsibilities to the fire and rescue services in
2004 means that it is practical to confer the functions in the order on
the Assembly. The 2004 Act, which devolved matters relating to fire and
rescue authorities in Wales, came into force in Wales in November 2004.
My understanding is that policy on such issues is administered by the
fire and rescue services branch of the Assembly’s Department for
Social Justice and Regeneration. It will be interesting to know what
provisions have been put in place to inform on fire and rescue service
policy development, for funding and for offering general public
guidance. In addition, I hope that it is appropriate to ask the
Minister what preparation the Assembly has made for taking over the new
functions.
The transfer of functions under
the 2005 order is deemed to be necessary to complement the devolution
of other fire and rescue responsibilities to the Assembly. I hope that
the transfer of those functions will allow for greater consistency in
the responsibility and accountability of the Assembly on matters
relating to fire safety.
Let me make one further point on
this part of the order. On 8 May, subordinate legislation was brought
before the Business Committee of the Assembly with regard to the Fire
and Rescue Services (Charging Wales) Order 2006. Those regulations will
make it possible to charge for services offered by fire and rescue
authorities, including the removal of water from flooding—apt on
a day that is so wet—the rescue of people from lift cabins, and
the provision of training and giving of advice to persons in relation
to premises where a trade, business or other undertaking is carried on.
Where do discussions on that transfer stand? I am aware of concerns
about the ability to impose charges, particularly on domestic premises,
especially when the damage is not self-inflicted. Furthermore, there
must be a concern about enabling the fire and rescue service to charge
for advice. I should like to hear the Minister’s views on that
because surely that could lead to other agencies, which do not have the
same level of expertise and experience, getting into the business of
offering advice, and providing a cheaper but less qualified service.
Ultimately, that is a matter for the Assembly. It is still under
discussion, but it would be useful to know the current position of the
order in the Assembly.
The transfer of functions under
section 1 of the 1983 Act will enable the Assembly to make regulations
authorising or requiring certain institutions that provide higher or
further education to charge students who do not have the required
connection with the United Kingdom fees that are higher than those
charged to students who do have such a connection. As the Minister
said, policy responsibility for student support has been transferred to
the Assembly and it is no longer appropriate, therefore, for the
Secretary of State for Education and Skills to retain that
power. It seems
entirely sensible to transfer the functions because, currently, some of
the regulations made under the 1983 Act are being made by the Assembly
and others by the Secretary of State. The transfer should allow for the
development of policy to be more efficient, and a consequence should be
improved delivery of services. There is nothing contentious about the
transfer, but I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed that it
will affect only students from overseas without the necessary link to
the UK and will not have an impact on the fees charged to all students
from outside Wales. It is vital that the Government confirm that the
regulations will affect only students from overseas. It would be
unacceptable if they affected the fees charged to UK students from
outside Wales who wish to study at a Welsh
university. Universities
must not allow themselves to become over-reliant on the fees brought in
by international students. We must also ensure that students are given
fair access to universities across the United Kingdom, and that
admissions are decided on merit, rather than on the potential financial
bonus that the applicant may bring. I hope that the Minister will
confirm that,
because it is important to ensure that universities do not rely on
international students and that admissions are decided on
merit. Also, will the
Minister give explicit assurance that the powers being transferred to
the National Assembly can be used in respect of those who have the
requisite connection with the United Kingdom as a whole, and not just
the requisite connection with Wales? Will he also assure us that the
National Assembly has no intention of seeking a change in the law in
that regard? Subject to those clarifications—and, hopefully, to
some suggestion of time scale from the Minister—we are content
with the
transfer. 4.42
pm Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): The hon. Lady
referred to charges for dealing with flood water. The Minister will
know that that is a live issue in many parts of Wales; in the Conwy
valley, which I have the honour to represent, it is a very big issue
indeed. During the last
serious episode of flooding in Llanrwst, a senior officer of the fire
service said that it would probably have to charge for the previously
routine work of dealing with the aftermath of flooding. Subsequently,
that officer withdrew those remarks. Am I right about the purport of
the order? Under what circumstances could the fire services normally
charge for dealing with flooding incidents? The primary purpose of the
fire service, and of any emergency service, is to deal with the
complaint, whether it be flood, fire or whatever, and it would be a
strange departure if there was a universal right to charge. Can the
Minister assist me on that? As I say, it is a live issue in the Conwy
valley, and it undoubtedly has far-reaching consequences, as many
people in the area are already unable to secure proper household
insurance. Perhaps he could say whether there is a distinction between
domestic premises and non-domestic premises in that regard. Other than
that, I think that the orders are entirely sensible and
non-controversial. 4.44
pm Lembit
Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD):Flooding is obviously
not the fault of citizens, on the whole; nor is it not the fault of the
citizens of Wales, on the whole, that our climate is changing. As such,
the regulations as proposed, together with the circumstantial evidence
that the hon. Gentleman shared with the Committee, are worrying. It
looks like the state will seek to transfer the cost of handling
flooding to the individuals who are the victims of flooding. As such, I
underline the hon. Gentleman’s comments in seeking a reassurance
from the Minister, for the sake of the record, that should that become
a live issue in the months or years ahead, we have a guarantee that the
Government have no intention of altering the onus of payment for flood
clear-up from the public services to the citizens, in circumstances
where, up until now, the public services have footed the
bill. The education
changes are welcome, but they create something of a contradiction in
the Government’s approach. Some hon. Members will know, and the
Secretary of State for Wales will know on account of the other hat that
he wears, that the Government forced
through a universally unpopular change to the student funding system in
Northern Ireland, where all parties, including Sinn Fein and the
Democratic Unionist party, were united in opposition to their
proposals. It is encouraging to see the Government providing latitude
and freedom for manoeuvre for the Welsh Assembly in these matters and
the change—albeit verging on administrative—is consistent
with giving that autonomy to the Welsh Assembly. Does the Minister expect the
Government to be equally consistent in their treatment of the same
issues for other parts of the United Kingdom? That may go slightly
beyond the remit of today’s debate. [Interruption.] I
hear concerned Back-Bench Labour Members eager to steer us away from
that evident contradiction in the Government’s thinking, but it
would be helpful if the Minister gave an assurance that the Secretaries
of State for Wales and Northern Ireland, who are the same person, are
thinking consistently on these matters. I hope that that is in
order. 4.47
pm Nick
Ainger: I am grateful for the support that hon. Members
have given to the order. The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs.
Gillan) raised a number of things that I shall try to address. She
asked what provisions are in place for policy development funding for
the order or for any consequential costs, and also asked about
guidance. The funding is already within the Welsh block. I can reassure
her that no additional costs relating to the order are being
transferred and the funding is in
place. In relation to
policy development, the fire and rescue services policies are contained
within the fire and rescue services framework document for Wales. I am
also aware that within the Department for Social Justice and
Regeneration there is an advisory group comprising fire and rescue
experts, communities and so on, who can give advice to Department
officials. The hon.
Lady and the hon. Members for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and
for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) also raised the issue of
charging for flooding. That does not relate to the order. However, it
is under discussion in the Assembly and will be addressed by an
Assembly order. I am sure that the points that hon. Members made on the
great difficulty that individual businesses and householders in
particular areas have securing insurance after a number of flooding
incidents will be taken into account in that
discussion. Mrs.
Gillan: May I just clarify something? I think that the
Minister said that there will be no extra money
and funds for taking on the extra responsibilities, but at the same time
the Assembly is considering charging for operations carried out by the
fire and rescue service. Am I correct in thinking that it is
anticipated that any costs attracted by transferring the functions to
the Assembly will be met from the income generated by future
charging? Nick
Ainger: No, that is not the case. The fire and rescue
services are already carrying out many of the functions. As the hon.
Lady said, the order brings together more than 100 pieces of
legislation. We do not expect the workload to be significantly
different. Therefore, no significant cost increases will result from
the order. In fact, the idea is for businesses to carry out fire risk
assessments on their own properties, with the support and advice of the
fire and rescue
services. Mrs.
Gillan: As I understand it, the powers to be transferred
to the Assembly include the power to make regulations about fire
precautions, under article 24 of the 2005 order, the power to authorise
persons as enforcing authorities for certain premises,
underarticle 25, the power to issue guidance to enforcing
authorities, under article 26, and the power to determine disputes, yet
there is to be no additional funding. However, I anticipate that extra
work will have to be carried out, so I should like to probe the
Minister further on that. If he cannot give me an answer now, I would
be perfectly willing to receive a letter from him in due
course. Nick
Ainger: Perhaps I can reassure the hon. Lady. I am assured
that the capital and revenue funding has been set aside in the
Assembly’s budget to fund the fire and rescue services and to
meet its obligations under the order. I hope that she is reassured by
that, but if she is not, perhaps we can talk later or I shall drop her
line. On education, I
again assure the hon. Lady that the order is confined to overseas
students. There is no way in which it could result in a university
trying to fund any shortfall by, perhaps, influencing the fees of other
students from the UK. Section 1 of the 1983 Act is quite clear: the
provisions apply specifically to overseas students and could not be
applied to any other students. To return to the point that the hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire made, tuition fees are not covered by the
order. With those explanatory comments, I hope that the Committee will
approve the order.
Question put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Transfer of Functions) Order
2006. Committee rose
at seven minutes to Five
o’clock.
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