Second Standing Committee
on Delegated Legislation

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Mr. Robertson: It has been the stated position of the Government, the Irish Government and the police in Northern Ireland that the IRA carried out the bank robbery. Does not that call for the specification of the organisation?

 
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Mr. Woodward: As I said, these decisions have to be taken in the round and in the judgment of the Secretary of State the answer to that question is very clearly no.

The hon. Gentleman asked what PIRA has to do in order to be specified. I simply say to him that all ceasefires are kept under review in accordance with the legislation. I remind him of the comments that were made in the context of the recent IMC report about progress made by the IRA, of the historic statement made on 28 July and of the extraordinary, historic act of decommissioning. The IMC report, which we expect in January, will be further evidence. The Secretary of State keeps all these matters under review.

Mr. Donaldson: The Minister was fast running out of superlatives to describe what the IRA has done, but he has said nothing on his position vis-à-vis the Loyalist Volunteer Force. I will not describe its statement as momentous, historic or anything else, because when people decide to stop killing innocent people we all welcome that. I am not sure that it needs the addition of adjectives. Nevertheless, what is the Government’s position on the LVF in the light of its recent statement? The Minister said that it will be kept under review, but what is the time scale?

Mr. Woodward: If the hon. Gentleman will give me a moment or two I will come to that matter. He raised a number of serious issues and I am trying systematically to move through them. With respect, he was the third person to speak, and if he will accept the timing I shall deal with the matters that he raised in order.

The hon. Member for Tewkesbury asked me how many individuals had been returned to prison. I do not have that information to hand but I am more than happy to write to him about it.

The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire raised the matter of exiles and tempts me to stray into a discussion of at least one Bill and probably two. We had an interesting spar on the issue yesterday, but I will not crave your indulgence too far, Mr. Olner, as I suspect that you would quickly, and appropriately, rule the comments out of order. However, I am happy to have that discussion with the hon. Gentleman in the appropriate place.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of rational thinking, which is appropriate to the order as it touches critically on the definition of terrorism. I remind him that I said yesterday that there are no good acts of terrorism; all terrorism is bad and should be condemned. The order is about a specific response to a specific set of conditions and I shall resist the temptation to explore what might be sane or insane. However, I ask him to consider the sanity of joining us later in the Lobby to vote for the 90-day provisions.

The Chairman: So long as the sparring will not start.

Lembit Öpik: No, Mr. Olner. I note the Minister’s request, but I have to decline.

The issue that I am raising and the assumption that underpins the order is that it is possible to influence the motivations of terrorist organisations. I accept that we probably do not want to take the matter any further
 
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today, but it is important to recognise that much of the Northern Ireland peace process has made the assumption that it is possible to influence terrorist activity by understanding their motivations. Indeed, I would go further by saying that if that is not the case, then specification orders such as this probably would not make much sense.

Mr. Woodward: I will resist the temptation to respond; I hear what the hon. Gentleman said.

The hon. Member for Lagan Valley asked several questions. He asked about how the UVF and the Red Hand Commando would be despecified. Again I say that the Secretary of State will always look at such things in the round. None the less, to be despecified, the UVF and the Red Hand Commando would have to maintain a ceasefire. The Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act provides the framework for that and the Secretary of State will keep the issue under review, as he does with all other ceasefires. However, I do not believe that there is any suggestion—I fully understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to make this case—that that is evidence of double standards. He and I, I am sure, would disagree about that, but the fact is that that is not the view that the Secretary of State and I hold on that.

On the hon. Gentleman’s questions about Sean Kelly, he described what I said as a long string of superlatives, but the fact is that I believe that the statement of the IRA on 28 July was historic. It is inappropriate not to acknowledge the significance of that statement. Everyone has been waiting—the hon. Gentleman more than anybody—a very long time, and I am sure that he is really saying that he wants to ensure that words are matched by deeds. We, too, are waiting for the deeds. That is why we waited for the act of decommissioning and for the October IMC report, and why we shall wait for the January report.

Let us be clear about one other thing: the term does not come to an end in January with the next IMC report; this is ongoing. All paramilitary activity has to
 
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come to an end; all criminality by those organisations has to come to an end—not just to an end by 31 December but beyond, which is why we believe there are not double standards. The Secretary of State took the view, with which I firmly agree, that the IRA statement on 28 July fundamentally changed the context, and it was in the light of that fundamental change of context that it was inappropriate to keep Mr. Kelly in custody.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about the status of the LVF in view of its standing down. Clearly, the Government welcome the LVF statement, but in order to ensure that there are not double standards, words must be matched by deeds. The Secretary of State will continue to keep the position of the LVF under review, as he will all paramilitary organisations.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the engagement with loyalism. We are, as he knows, actively working right across the board with political representatives of loyalism. There is a lot of work to do with that. The loyalist commission, which comprises representatives of the UDA, the UVF and their related organisations, as well as representatives of the community sector, Churches, and some political activists, also plays a constructive role in helping us to do that, and I thank those involved for their work.

This a process and never an end point. It has taken a long time to arrive at this moment. Difficult decisions have to be made. No specifying or despecifying is ever taken lightly by a Secretary of State, but I believe that we are right to have taken the actions that we have. The Secretary of State will keep all such matters under review to reassure members of the Committee. In the light of that, I commend the order to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 (Specified Organisations) Order (S.I. 2005, No. 2558).

Committee rose at ten minutes past Three o’clock.

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Prepared 10 November 2005