The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:Chairman:
Mr.
David Marshall
Curry,
Mr. David (Skipton and Ripon)
(Con) Curtis-Thomas,
Mrs. Claire (Crosby)
(Lab)
Dorries,
Mrs. Nadine (Mid-Bedfordshire)
(Con)
Foster,
Mr. Michael (Worcester)
(Lab) Fraser,
Mr. Christopher (South-West Norfolk)
(Con)
Hanson,
Mr. David (Minister of State, Northern Ireland
Office)
Iddon,
Dr. Brian (Bolton, South-East)
(Lab)
Jenkins,
Mr. Brian (Tamworth)
(Lab) Jones,
Lynne (Birmingham, Selly Oak)
(Lab)
Khabra,
Mr. Piara S. (Ealing, Southall)
(Lab)
Murphy,
Mr. Denis (Wansbeck)
(Lab)
Naysmith,
Dr. Doug (Bristol, North-West)
(Lab/Co-op)
Reid,
Mr. Alan (Argyll and Bute)
(LD)
Robertson,
Mr. Laurence (Tewkesbury)
(Con) Robinson,
Mr. Peter (Belfast, East)
(DUP) Rosindell,
Andrew (Romford)
(Con)
Waltho,
Lynda (Stourbridge)
(Lab) Frank Cranmer, Committee
Clerk attended the
Committee Second
Standing Committee on Delegated
LegislationWednesday
19 July
2006[Mr.
David Marshall in the
Chair]Draft Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Modification) (No.2) Order 20062.30
pm The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office(Mr. David
Hanson): I beg to move,
That the Committee has
considered the draft Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Modification) (No.2)
Order 2006. I welcome
you to the Chair, Mr. Marshall, for this, the eighth modification order
Committee. I hope that you will find it of interest in terms of
Northern Ireland politics.
The main purpose of the order
is to extend for a further six months the power of the House of Commons
to legislate on Northern Ireland matters by Order in Council. The
Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive were suspended in October 2002
and provisions of the schedule to the Northern IrelandAct 2000
were invoked, whereby the Government have the power to legislate for
Northern Ireland by Order in Council. The power was initially limited
to the first six months of the suspension, because the Government
wished the Assembly to return. Sadly, that has not happened, there have
been seven previous orders every six months, and the seventh expires on
14 October. Before
us, we have the eighth modification order, which provides for an
extension of a further six months from 14 October for a period that
expires on 14 April 2007, or as I very much hope, earlier, and at the
latest on 24 November if devolved government is restored.
The order is being taken today,
although the six months of the previous order are not yet up, because
there will be no time following the return of Parliament after the
recess to take the order through the House of Commons and the House of
Lords before it expires on 14 October. We all agree that the
Order-in-Council procedure is neither a satisfactory nor an efficient
way for the House of Commons to legislate on matters that properly
relate to the Northern Ireland Assembly as set out by the 2000
Act.
The
Order-in-Council procedure is a poor second to Assembly scrutiny of
such matters. We have hadthat debate, and the hon. Members for
Tewkesbury(Mr. Robertson) and for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid)
have raised those matters on every occasion of an Order in Council.
This is the third Order in Council modification order that I have taken
through Committee, and on each of those occasions, concerns have been
raised, too. I accept that the procedure is not satisfactory, and I
have said that we will consider those concerns in due course.
In another
place last week, an amendment was made to the Northern Ireland
(Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill to deal with the issue. The amendment
was made against the Governments wishes, so we have had to
reflect on the matter seriously. My right hon. Friend the Secretary
of State and I have reflected on the matter, and he has asked me to
inform the House of Commons that it is unhelpful to make changes to the
procedures for Orders in Council in the Bill that is before another
place and which returns to this House shortly. Having said that, we
recognise that strong feelings exist in both Houses of Parliament about
the inadequacy of arrangements for dealing with the vast bulk of
Northern Ireland legislation. Although premature, given the potential
for restoration of the Assembly, we are prepared to consider several
measures and to provide undertakings about the Order-in-Council
procedure. My right
hon. Friend has agreed that between now and 24 November our focus is to
restore the Assembly, and thereby to do away with the Order-in-Council
procedure completely, as hon. Members wish. If, however, it does not
prove possible for whatever reason, and the Assembly is not restored by
24 November, the Government will quickly introduce measures to make
direct rule more accountable, including provisions that will enable the
amendment of Orders in Council in light of views expressed by Members
of both Houses of Parliament. I hope that that reflects the spirit of
the amendment made in another place last Thursday. In effect, the
opportunity, agreed through the usual channels, for an amendability
stage in parliamentary consideration of Northern Ireland Orders in
Council will be considered. We will also ensure that we legislate for
Northern Ireland by Bill, wherever appropriate.
As I have said, I hope that
this process will be discontinued soon. The clock is ticking
towards24 Novemberthe deadline by which we can, we
hope, recall the Assembly, and select the First Minister, Deputy First
Minister and the Executive. I want to remain focused on the prize of
the restoration of full
devolution Last month,
the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach visited Belfast, and are in
discussions with relevant parties, as is the Secretary of State, to
ensure that the Assembly is restored by the deadline on 24 November. We
plan to hold further talks with the political parties, and both the
Irish and British Governments want to do everything possible to support
the process in order to get the Assembly back up and running by
November. Ultimately,
that is a matter for hon. Membersfrom political parties
representing Northern Ireland constituencies. I want Sinn Fein, the
Democratic Unionist party and other parties to work together to ensure
that they take up office to deal with the matters of housing,
transport, health, education and agriculture, with which I and my
colleagues now
deal. Over the coming
months, the reactions of Members of the Legislative Assembly will be
crucial to Northern Irelands future. The Prime Minister said
that we must move the progress on or else
close the chapter or close the
book. The
latter would be a poor second best, and I sincerely hope that the Order
in Council before us will be the last modification order that I bring
before the House of Commons. At the moment, however, such orders
area regrettable necessity. I appreciate the practical
difficulties that they might cause and hope that they will soon be a
thing of the past. A focus on the objective of the restoration of the
Northern Ireland Assembly, and of a
stable, inclusive and lasting Government, would be far preferable to the
way in which we introduce orders under these measures.
In the
meantime, I hope that I have assuredhon. Members, particularly
the hon. Members for Tewkesbury and for Argyll and Bute, who have
expressed concerns here and in another place on behalf of their
respective parties, that, if the deadline passes and restoration fails,
we will consider a means by which to make the Order-in-Council
procedureshould we have to fall back on ita more
amendable task for the Committee and Members of this place. With that,
I commend the order to the
Committee. 2.37
pm Mr.
Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I
also welcome you to the Committee, Mr. Marshall. As the Minister said,
it is with some sadness that we have to consider this order yet again.
I understand fully the reasons for considering it earlier than
normalbecause of the parliamentary recessbut it is sad
that the Assembly in Northern Ireland is not up and running
again. Over the past
few months, we have considered some very important matters in this
Committeethe Minister knows that because he was responsible for
introducing most of themsuch as the initial consideration of
water rates, the rating system and the education system. Tomorrow, we
will have a lively debate on smoking in Northern Ireland, which also is
important, although I do not think that the Minister is taking that one
through. So some important legislation has been passed, and it is
unsatisfactory that we must consider them in Committee. Not only can we
not amend statutory instruments, but of course only a limited number of
Members can join the Committee to consider the issues. That is of some
regret.
No matter how
many times I go to Northern Ireland, I feel rather inadequate in my
role. I take a deep interest in the ProvinceI always have
doneand have visited it many times, and continue to do so
regularly. However, with the best will in the world, I cannot know the
intricacies and details nor have the same feel as
thoseparticularly hon. Memberswho live in Northern
Ireland. So the
current process is deeply unsatisfactory, as the Minister said. That is
so much the case that I wondered whether we should support yet another
measure to extend this a way of governing, but was persuaded otherwise.
I know that the Secretary of State has been in close contact with my
hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington), the shadow
Secretary of State, in order to find a better way forward. The House of
Lords has considered the matter, and no doubt we will look at it again
next Tuesday. So because of that movement, I shall not object to the
proposal
today. I
sincerely hope that the Assembly will be up and running by November.
However, I would like the Government to concentrate more on the people
who in my view are making it difficult for the Assembly to get
togetherthe Minister will say that they are doing that anyway.
I can understand the reluctance of members of the Democratic Unionist
party to go into Government with people who still will not recognise
the legitimacy of the police in Northern Ireland and, indeed, will not
recognise the legitimacy of the state. That is a difficult position to
be in. I can well understand why constitutional politicians do not want
to share government with people who take that stance.
As I have said many times on the
Floor of the House, the last time that I visited south Armagh I was
told by the police, who had no political axe to grind, that the local
Sinn Fein MP will not even speak to them. Not even speaking to or
engaging with the police is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. What
sort of example does that set the communities that such Members
represent? If Sinn Fein-IRA hope to persuade their people to recognise
the legitimacy of the police, co-operate with the police and join the
police boards they must start giving the lead themselves. I am sure the
Minister will say that they are doing this anyway, but I really want to
see the pressure put on the people whom I believe are to blame for the
fact thatthe Assembly is not up and running yet. Only when
that happens and it becomes acceptable to the constitutional parties in
Northern Ireland will the Assembly get up and running.
It is not only the DUP. I had a
meeting recently with Sir Reg Empey, the leader of the Ulster
Unionists, who may well be seen to be taking a slightly more moderate
line. He has some disagreements with the DUP and I asked him whether,
if he had the opportunity now, he would go into government with Sinn
Fein. He said no and that there would have to be some more movement on
the policing issue. Even Sir Reg has his doubts and his concerns. It is
not only one party holding things up: it is also the people who are not
legitimate and who are not involved in constitutional politics or, even
if they are, are involved in other activities too. I would like to see
more pressure brought to bear on them because I do not want to sit in
another Committee like this one.
Although I have not discussed
it with my colleagues, if we got to April next year I would be
reluctant to go along with a motion like this again. I do not think
that we will be in that position. I hope that the Assembly will be up
and running. That is somewhat optimistic and so I urge the Government
to continue considering how else we might govern Northern Ireland.
There are proposals on the table. I hope that those proposals can be
developed so that we do not have to consider another Order in Council
like this because I, for one, would be reluctant to go along with it.
Having made those few remarks, I will not seek to divide the Committee
today. Mr.
Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): It is a pleasure to
serve under your chairmanship,Mr. Marshall.
Since the order was last
discussed in Committee, things have moved on. The Assembly has been
recalled and the Secretary of State has set a firm
deadline24 Novemberby which either the
Assembly must elect a First Minister, a Deputy First Minister and an
Executive, allowing power to be restored, or Assembly Members
salaries and allowances must be stopped and all elections postponed for
the foreseeable future. Clearly, we all hope that the first of those
two scenarios will come to pass. However, given the difficulties facing
the Restoration of Government Committee, it seems that little progress
is being made. I was, therefore, pleased to hear the Minister announce
that the Secretary of State plans further all-party talks. Such talks
are essential if progress is to be made, and we hope that they will be
successful.
Given that the
staff of the Assembly risk losing their jobs on 24 November, we have to
consider the questions of redundancy and statutory notice. Given also
that the Members of the Legislative Assembly are the employers rather
than the Government, will the Government be advising them that they
will have to issue precautionary redundancy notices on 24 August to all
their staff? Like the hon. Member for Tewkesbury, I put on record once
again our frustration at the practice of governing Northern Ireland by
Orders in
Council. The
Minister has agreed that that procedure is
unsatisfactory. Last
autumn, the Secretary of State wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for
Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) to ask for suggestions on how to
improve scrutiny of Northern Ireland legislation. My hon. Friend
responded on 2 November with a number of ideas about how we could more
adequately scrutinise such legislation and involve elected
representatives and organisations in Northern Ireland more closely in
the consultation and scrutiny
process. The Secretary
of State replied to my hon. Friend on 25
March: I will
review the situation again later this year when we should have a
clearer idea as to the chances of success. If there appears to be
little prospect for a successful restoration of the devolved
institutions at that juncture, I will want to talk to you and the other
parties to discuss the necessary
changes. I was
pleased to hear the Minister say that the present procedures are not
satisfactory and that he was prepared to consider a number of measures
to modify the Order-in-Council procedure. I hope that if the Assembly
is not up and running by 24 November, the Government will quickly
introduce measures to improve
scrutiny. As was
already mentioned, an amendment was passed in another place on 13 July
to allow Orders in Council to be considered with amendments. That was a
genuine attempt by Opposition parties to reform the process by which
Parliament legislates for Northern Ireland, but it is not right that
all legislation must come before us on a take it or leave
it basis. The
ability to amend legislation is important. It is not only about the
obvious benefits of making changes to legislation; it also allows
Parliament to hold a clear, focused debate on particular aspects of a
piece of legislation. Often, because we hold only a general debate, we
cannot focus on controversial points. Also, a piece of legislation such
as the one that we considered a fortnight ago on miscellaneous
provisions, often consists of two completely separate parts, of which
we might favour one but not the
other. I hope that the
Assembly and the Executive will be up and running by 24 November, and
that we will never again need to consider an order like this one.
However, we must prepare for the fact that it might not happen, and I
hope that discussions would be held quickly about introducing improved
ways of legislating for Northern Ireland.
I share the
reservations of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury about the order, but
like him I shall not oppose it, as there would be no way to put
alternative provisions in place by 15 October. I shall not seek to
divide the Committee, but if we debate a similar order again next March,
I hope that by then the Government will have introduced alternative
methods of scrutinising Northern Ireland legislation, rather than the
present take it or leave it method. I was encouraged by
the Ministers
remarks. 2.51
pm Mr.
Hanson: I shall try to respond to the points made by
Opposition Members. I should like to reassure the hon. Member for
Argyll and Bute about Assembly Members and their staff. As he knows, in
the event that the Assembly is not reconstituted on 24 November, the
Northern Ireland miscellaneous provisions measure, whose details we are
dealing with today, will ensure that Assembly salaries are stopped. It
is the hon. Gentlemans intention to ensure that the Government
write to Assembly Membersan official will do so
shortlyto offer advice respecting their staff in the event that
that occurs. As the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute knows, the
Government wish that event not to
occur. The hon.
Members for Tewkesbury and for Argyll and Bute have said that they are
not minded to deal with such matters in future in the way that they
have been dealt with today. I agree with that. They know I agree, and
that I want the Assembly back. In the event that it does not come back,
we shall examine the alternative arrangements and discuss those with
them in the spirit of the amendment that was passed in another place
last Thursday. I hope that that reassures
them. The
hon. Member for Tewkesbury mentioned how we will get to restoration,
and he also rightly mentioned the big issue of policingone of
the potential obstacles to restoration. I say clearly to the Committee
that I wish members of Sinn Fein to play their full role on the
policing board. I wish members of Sinn Fein, and supporters of that
community and constituency, to work with the police in Northern Ireland
on the ground to deal with everything from antisocial behaviour through
to the normal matters of state, in the same way that we would expect to
deal with the police as local Members of Parliamentand indeed
as members of the publicin our constituencies. I want that to
happen, and I am encouraging it. I hope that those in office in Sinn
Fein will work towards it, and I know that they are considering how
best to deal with it. It is one of the big obstacles. The Unionist
parties feel strongly about it.
I do not see it as a
precondition for further entry into the Assembly by political parties,
however, because there are the issues of crime and criminality,
although I hope that the Independent Monitoring Commission report that
is due in October will resolve the position on those issues for the
political parties.
There are a number of
difficulties that must be faced before the Assembly is brought back in
November. We are aware of what they are, as are all Members of the
House. The Government are trying to resolve them to the best of our
ability through discussion, through the Preparation for Government
Committee that we have established, through working with the political
parties, through working with Assembly Members and through setting an
end date for the Assembly in case things are not sorted out.
I regret that I have to bring
this order to Committee today, but Members know why I have done so. On
that basis I commend it to them and look for their support for an
alternative future mechanism. In the meantime I shall work for
restoration. Question
put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee
has considered the Northern IrelandAct 2000 (Modification)
(No.2) Order
2006. Committee rose
at eight minutes to Three
oclock.
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