Mr.
Hanson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments and I
welcome the fact that there is academic excellence in Northern
Ireland’s schools, but I do not want to welcome the fact that
people are determined to access it at the age of 11. I hope that,
through debating this order today, I will convince the Committee to
support my aim.
Lady
Hermon: I am grateful to the Minister for once again
taking an intervention. Will he kindly explain for the benefit of
everyone in the Committee and the Public Gallery why, given that this
Government are going full-steam ahead in trying to re-establish the
Assembly by 24 November, we are sitting here this afternoon dealing
with an un-amendable Order in Council? Why can the Minister not leave
it until after 24
November?
Mr.
Hanson: The hon. Lady will know that I have great sympathy
with the point that she makes about the Order in Council procedure, and
we have had discussions along those lines about every such order that I
have introduced. She knows that the Government have taken the view that
the order’s provisions will come into effect on 1 August. But,
because of the controversy, we have indicated that, if the Assembly is
reconstituted before 24 November, it can, in this instance, determine
the commencement date—or otherwise—of the controversial
provision on selection. We have said clearly that if the Assembly is
not reconstituted by 24 November, this specific selection proposal will
come into effect on 25 November and will be operational from that date,
for the future implementation of proposals in later academic
years. I know that
this is a controversial matter, but I give the Assembly the right and
opportunity to determine the implementation date of the elements
relating to selection. I hope that the Assembly is back in place by 24
November, and I know that the Committee shares that hope. If it is back
in place, the power will lie, rightly, with those members of the
Committee who are Members of the Assembly to vote to determine whether
that proposal is pursued.
Sammy
Wilson: Will the Minister explain to the Committee why, if
it is right to allow the elected representatives of Northern Ireland
the right to determine the shape of the education system that pertains
in that part of the United Kingdom before 24 November, it is
not right for them to have the same opportunity after 24 November? Why
is that date so significant that, before it, they have such a right,
but after it they do
not?
Mr.
Hanson: I remind the hon. Gentleman that, as he and other
members of the Committee know, this matter has been under discussion
for six years. There have been reports from Costello, and the Assembly
Committee has given consideration to this issue. For six years, there
have been discussions—with my right hon. Friend the Member for
Liverpool, Wavertree, with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon
(Angela E. Smith), and with the current Minister with responsibility
for education in Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for
Liverpool, Garston.
This Government must continue
to govern on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland, in the absence
of an elected Assembly taking office and there being an elected
Executive. As every member of this Committee who represents a Northern
Ireland seat knows, I want the Assembly back in place and up and
running, and to be the locus for consideration of these matters.
If the hon. Gentleman is back in the Assembly by24
November, he can determine the future of selection policy, but if it
does not reconstitute, we have a duty to govern, and govern we
will.
Mrs.
Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): Is it not rather unfair
to schools’ teaching staff to have to wait until the magic date
of 24 November to know whether this place takes that decision, or
whether it is taken in a Northern Ireland
Assembly?
Mr.
Hanson: The decision on the implementation of that aspect
of selection is not within my gift. The right hon. Member for North
Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley), whom I am pleased to see has joined us
today, even though he is not a member of the Committee, has the
opportunity to meet the Prime Minister tomorrow to discuss these
matters. In theory, it is possible for the Assembly to be reconstituted
in one, two or three weeks’ time. It is possible for it to be
reconstituted before the start of the next school term.
[Interruption.] I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle
is nodding in enthusiastic agreement with me—that is a welcome
change in these Committees.
I understand the position
adopted by the hon. Member for Strangford (Mrs. Robinson), but we have
to continue to govern in the absence of an Assembly. I very much want
it to be back in place by 24 November and if it is, it can determine
these matters; if it is not, the Government will determine them and we
have made our position very
clear. Mr.
Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): Presumably, by
implication, this afternoon’s proceedings would not be taking
place, or would be taking place in an entirely different way, had the
Assembly been reconstituted by the parties of Northern Ireland. As a
Great Britain member of this Committee, I certainly would not have
wished to determine these matters, had the Northern Ireland parties
found ways to reach an agreement to resume normal
working.
Mr.
Hanson: My hon. Friend supports what I am saying. I very
much regret the fact that I am the Minister dealing with this issue
today, albeit not with Executive responsibility. I regret that my hon.
Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston is the Minister with such
responsibility, and that she—as I do in other areas of Northern
Ireland affairs—is taking decisions that rightly and properly
are the responsibility of elected Members.
I remind my hon. Friend the
Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) that the Assembly has been
suspended for approaching four years. If the Government take the view
that we should not take any action on any such matters, there will be
continuing drift. I want the Assembly back and I expect it to return. I
encourage the right hon. Member for North
Antrim— Mr.
Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): Encourage the
IRA.
Mr.
Hanson: I encourage all parties to bring the Assembly
back. I simply say to my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire
and others that if that happens, the power relating to the effective
aspects of this order will lie in the Assembly’s
hands.
Mr.
Todd: Just to reinforce my point, surely the duty is for
the parties of Northern Ireland to find ways to resume their
responsibilities in these matters. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend
that until they do so there is no alternative to proceeding as we are.
I agree that that is unsatisfactory, and it is much to my regret that I
am spending the afternoon discussing these
matters.
Mrs.
Iris Robinson: Perhaps it would aid the hon.
Gentleman’s clearer understanding of the situation if I
explained that the reason why we cannot set up a devolved
Administration—
The
Chairman: Order. I remind the hon. Lady that it is the
Minister who is speaking, and that one cannot intervene on an
intervention. If she takes her seat and the Minister carries on, she
might get a chance to intervene on
him.
Mr.
Hanson: Thank you, Miss
Begg. The dividing
line is clear in Committee today. In the event of academic selection
and the transfer at age 11 ending, as proposed, we need to ensure that
an alternative measure is implemented. I want the matter to be
addressed on the basis of informed parental choice. If a school is
oversubscribed, boards of governors will have the opportunity to
examine admissions criteria to determine who will be admitted. The
criteria will be based on specific regulations such as siblings, feeder
schools and other related matters, and not on the basis of selection.
We want parents to make informed choices, and a wide range of
information about post-primary schools will be available—for
example, the pupil profile will provide parents with
information about children’s achievements, progress and
interests. We will look at different admission criteria, such as
siblings and proposed feeder
schools. Greg
Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): In Kent, where my
constituency is located, we are fortunate enough to have grammar
schools. I am alarmed by the direction of the Minister’s
comments, but other Ministers have assured me that there is no
intention to impose on the people of Kent a change in the education
system. What have the people of Northern Ireland done to elicit from
the Government a determination to take away what they too want to
continue?
Mr.
Hanson: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the debate. This
is not about attacking grammar schools per se. We are talking about
selection for those schools and how we ensure selection to those
schools. In his constituency, some 4 per cent. of individuals are
subject to selection. The Government have said that we will not stop
that, but in Northern Ireland the whole system is subject to selection,
which I believe undermines people, so we are taking action. As I have
said, Northern Ireland Members have it in their hands to change that
policy. If they are back in office by 24 November, the
Assembly will determine the matter.
Dr.
William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am sure that the
Minister accepts that the people of Northern Ireland are equally
frustrated that our
devolution has been held up by terrorists, whom we are supposed to
accept in government. Does he not accept that the vast majority of
people in Northern Ireland are against the Government proposals? Surely
the Government should govern with the consent of the
people.
Mr.
Hanson: If this is wrong, I am about to do the hon.
Gentleman a disservice, but I think that he was late into this
afternoon’s debate. I have already mentioned a list of
organisations, including library boards, teachers’ unions and
others, which support the measure. The measure arises out of a long
period of discussion, including two home-grown reports commissioned in
Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman and I disagree about the matter,
but I am acting as a last-minute replacement on behalf of one of my
ministerial colleagues, who is indisposed through ill health today,
putting these points on behalf of the
Government.
Mr.
Donaldson: The Minister has said that the whole system in
Northern Ireland is subject to selection, but that is not accurate. In
Craigavon, for example, they operate the Dixon plan, where there is
selection but not until 14. In other areas of Northern Ireland, such as
Cookstown and Kilkeel, comprehensive education is available. He is not
correct to say that the entire system in Northern Ireland is subject to
selection. Different systems operate in different areas, which is not
dissimilar from the situation in England and Wales, so why is he
seeking to impose one overall system on the whole of Northern
Ireland?
Mr.
Hanson: As I have said, the Government are committed to
ending selection, because we believe that it disadvantages those
individuals who are not
selected.
Mrs.
Robinson: I want to follow up the point raised by my hon.
Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea). The
Government expect us to accept Sinn Fein-IRA in government, but people
from that organisation murdered school bus drivers taking children to
school; they murdered principals; and they murdered teachers. That is
the difference between what is happening here and what is happening in
Northern Ireland. The Government should stand up for the rights of
children and teachers not to have terrorists overseeing education in
our
country.
Mr.
Hanson: Having met victims of crime with the hon. Lady, I
know how difficult it is for her and her party to reach an
accommodation in government with representatives from Sinn Fein, and
indeed other parties.
Mr.
Hanson: The Government want the Assembly back in place,
and so do she and her party. Decisions such as that on selection are in
the gift of the Assembly, but in the absence of the Assembly, we still
have to govern strongly.
Sandra
Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Does my hon.
Friend think that the many organisations that agree with the
Government’s proposals in Northern Ireland have considered the
example of Scotland, where we do not have selection and where we have
an excellent education
system?
Mr.
Hanson: There are examples in many parts of the United
Kingdom of education where selection is not involved. There is a
disagreement among Committee members that will be expressed in the
course of the next two hours, and I want to ensure that everyone has a
chance to
speak. Mr.
David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): The Minister
refers to several organisations that have expressed support in
consultations for the Government’s intentions, but is not the
best consultation exercise the one that took place through the ballot
box at the last election? The majority of those who were elected in
Northern Ireland did not stand on the ticket of prohibiting
selection—we see many of them here today. Should not there be
due deference to those elected Members, and is not the Minister simply
seeking to frustrate the democratic
will?
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