Draft Industrial Training Levy
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The Chairman: Order. The Member is straying away from the orders that are before us. Tim Farron: All I say, Mr. Olner, is that none of that detracts from the fact that my party is prepared to support the orders. We recognise the support from the industry, and that there should be consensus on this matter. I promised a distressingly short contribution, so I shall end there. 2.59 pmPhil Hope: We have had a short but enlightening debate. It is a pleasure to have our first encounter in our respective new roles with the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), who was lured quite brilliantly by my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton down many a highway and byway outside the focus of the orders. As a former Minister in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister with responsibilities for a department called Creating Sustainable Communities, I strongly welcome the Kate Barker report and was delighted that the Opposition were praying it in aid of investment in skills. I shall view it as a new dimension in the Opposition’s policies as we develop our proposals to provide decent housing for everyone in our communities. However, I shall not stray off the point. As well as supporting the orders, the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings raised two major points, which I want to address. I have some good news for him on the question of apprenticeships in the construction industry. I am delighted to be able to tell him that there has been a strong growth in apprenticeships in the industry in the past year. Members of the Committee will know that in 1997, when we were elected, some 77,000 young people were taking apprenticeships. In 2005, the figure was
Mr. Davey: Can the Minister tell us whether those figures are for young people beginning apprenticeships or completing them? Phil Hope: They are apprenticeship starts, but we are concerned about the level of completions as well, and I shall come to that in a moment. I want, first, to say a little more about those taking apprenticeships. The largest group of apprentices in the construction industry is in bricklaying, where there are some 6,500, carpentry and joinery—some 12,700—painting and decorating—2,900—bench joinery—1,200—and solid plastering—1,200. To deal with the point about completion rates, we are pleased that standards in the apprenticeship programme are high, but the number of young people completing them has been a cause for concern. Some 75 per cent. of apprenticeships are managed by the CITB’s own managing agency. In 2003, the figure for completions was 29 per cent., which is low, and we wanted to see an improvement. Completion rates in the CITB-CS managing agency are now running at 55 per cent. There has been a step change improvement in completion rates for construction apprentices, which I am pleased to be able to report to the Committee. However, the rate across the piece is still not good enough. We have now set a target to increase the number by 75 per cent. in 2008. Therefore, following a step change in volume, we now wish to see a step change in completion rates. The hon. Gentleman is right to point to the importance of that. I am pleased to say that the CITB is working with further education colleges to enable the key skills test to be taken earlier, which should lead to improved completion rates. A new approach, called a programme-led pathway for an apprenticeship, is contributing significantly to the improvement. Apprentices based at a college have an opportunity to acquire site experience and to complete their apprenticeship in that way. Imaginative and creative ways of undertaking an apprenticeship, in partnership with FE colleges, as the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings said, are achieving this improvement. Mr. Davey: I am pleased that the Minister can tell the Committee that there has been an increase in completions. Can he say a little more about why he believes that increase has occurred? There are some concerns that when employers set up and offer apprenticeships and the opportunity for the applicant falls through, the apprenticeship place that has been created is not taken up by anyone else. Is the Minister aware of that problem and will he tackle it? Phil Hope: We are aware of a range of issues relating to young people completing apprenticeships and new young people taking up their places if they fail to complete, and want to ensure that we understand why young people have not completed. Is it because of the
There is a range of different reasons why that happens. I am pleased to say that the industry has identified those problems and causes, and is actively working to deliver apprenticeships through new approaches that increase completion rates. Mr. Hayes: I am interested in completions, and I was going to intervene just as the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) did. I should like the Minister’s views on the geographical split of completions. He may not be able to provide the details now, as they are complex, but the information that I receive from employers and colleges is that people in rural areas are more likely to leave, simply because of the issue of getting where they need to go to complete their work. Does the Minister have any breakdown of that sort, and—similarly—of urban areas, and the sociological issues associated with people who may have financial difficulties with their completion? It would be helpful to us to identify the problems that he described, and to discuss and perhaps come to a conclusion about the solutions. Phil Hope: I regret that I do not have with me the information to which the hon. Gentleman refers, as I did not anticipate delving so deep into apprenticeships. In my endeavours to respond to some of his points, I am happy to write to him. I am not aware of the difference between rural and urban areas that he described, but I am happy to look into the matter to ascertain whether that is true and, if so, what the barriers are to young people undertaking or completing an apprenticeship in a rural area compared with other areas. There may be transport issues. If we have the information, I shall be happy to write to him. I talked about completion rates in response to the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton. I wanted to pick up on the point about finding places for young people to undertake their apprenticeship. I thought that he was describing a call to arms among employers to take on apprentices. I echo that: whether in the construction industry, which is the subject of these orders, or wider, it is important that employers recognise the value of apprenticeships. They provide the employer with a young person who becomes dedicated, loyal and committed to their company, offering real value to it in terms of productivity, and benefiting themselves through the training that they receive. We must be clear about the benefits of apprenticeships to employers. We established the modern apprenticeship task force, which completed its
Mr. Davey: The Minister talked about the role of employers talking to other employers, particularly through the sector skills councils, and it is important for the construction and engineering construction industries. Has he picked up from employers on other sector skills councils whether they are interested in considering a levy system— The Chairman: Order. It is unfair to ask the Minister that sort of question. This discussion is broadening out into a debate that perhaps could take place in Westminster Hall or on the Floor of the House. Phil Hope: I shall take your advice to heart, Mr. Olner. Perhaps we could debate these matters more widely. Other questions arose about the relationship between FE colleges and the construction industry. New initiatives are happening as we speak. New specialised diplomas for 14 to 19-year-olds at levels 1, 2 and 3 are being developed to provide new forms of training in not only the hard skills, but, as the hon. Gentleman described them, the soft skills such as employability. That is very important. The literacy and numeracy levels of young people in school are the highest that they have ever been, and that is also a major contribution. Employers tell us that that is what they want to see. Further, the roll-out of “train to gain” involves free training to employers up to a level 2 qualification. I am sure that we shall have many debates about that. The Chairman: Order. The Minister should not rise to the bait that others Members have cast. Phil Hope: I will take your instructions, Mr. Olner. Perhaps we should debate that matter at another time and in a more appropriate place.None the less, the orders fit within a wider skills strategy that I will be delighted to bring to Members’ attention at a more appropriate time. One other question that the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings asked was about the long-term future and whether the membership of the two boards was in decline. I have spoken to the chairmen of both boards about that issue. The 1982 Act—now 24 years old—may no longer reflect best industry practice. That is inevitable. I want to ensure that the levy system is not put at risk, as it is such an essential and important part of what we are doing. Therefore, I have asked officials to work with legal advisers and officials from the two boards to consider the problem and report on it as soon as possible so that we can determine whether there is a problem, and, if so, how to resolve it. Column Number: 15 I believe that Members across the House of Commons want the system to be strengthened. If changes in the structure of the industry might put it at risk, we need to be ahead of the game and ensure that we deal with any problems. The hon. Gentleman was right to raise that concern. I am pleased that he did, and I am pleased to be able to tell him that we are on the case and will introduce proposals if there is a need for change. The orders relate to the construction and engineering construction industries. I stress that it continues to be the collective view of employers in those two industries that training should be funded through a statutory levy system in order to secure a sufficient pool of skilled labour. I am pleased that there
Question put and agreed to. Resolved,
Draft Industrial Training Levy Resolved,
Committee rose at twelve minutes past Five o’clock. |
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