The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Mike
Hancock
Afriyie,
Adam
(Windsor)
(Con)
Ainsworth,
Mr. Bob
(Treasurer of Her Majesty's
Household)
Bacon,
Mr. Richard
(South Norfolk)
(Con)
Baldry,
Tony
(Banbury)
(Con)
Battle,
John
(Leeds, West)
(Lab)
Burstow,
Mr. Paul
(Sutton and Cheam)
(LD)
Ellwood,
Mr. Tobias
(Bournemouth, East)
(Con)
Griffiths,
Nigel
(Deputy Leader of the House of
Commons)
Heath,
Mr. David
(Somerton and Frome)
(LD)
MacShane,
Mr. Denis
(Rotherham)
(Lab)
Mitchell,
Mr. Austin
(Great Grimsby)
(Lab)
Riordan,
Mrs. Linda
(Halifax)
(Lab/Co-op)
Spellar,
Mr. John
(Warley)
(Lab)
Tipping,
Paddy
(Sherwood)
(Lab)
Touhig,
Mr. Don
(Islwyn)
(Lab/Co-op)
Vara,
Mr. Shailesh
(North-West Cambridgeshire)
(Con)
Vis,
Dr. Rudi
(Finchley and Golders Green)
(Lab)
Glenn
McKee, Rebecca Davies, Committee
Clerks
attended the Committee
First
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Monday 15
January
2007
[Mr.
Mike Hancock
in the
Chair]
Electoral Commission
4.30
pm
The
Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Nigel Griffiths):
I
beg to move,
That the
Committee has considered the motion in respect of the Electoral
Commission in the name of Mr. Jack
Straw.
[That an Humble
Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will,
with effect in each case from19th January 2007, reappoint
James Samuel Younger to be the chairman of the Electoral Commission for
the period ending on 31st December 2008, and further
reappoint Pamela Joan Gordon to be an Electoral Commissioner for the
period ending on30th June
2007.]
On behalf of
the Committee, I welcome you to the Chair, Mr.
Hancock.
I know from
the procedures followed so far that there is general agreement on this
issue and that, to date, it has not been considered controversial. The
motion proposes the reappointment of the chairman of the Electoral
Commission, Sam Younger, for two years and of Pamela Gordon for six
months, with effect from 19 January 2007. The reappointments of Sam
Younger and Pamela Gordon have been proposed by the Speaker following
the statutory consultations with political parties. The party leaders
raised no objections to either reappointment. The Speaker then gave his
agreement to a motion being made in the House for the reappointments
and wrote to my right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House, to ask him
to arrange for todays motion to be considered by the House. I
should emphasise that, as the Electoral Commission is independent of
the Government, this is a House matter and the Leader of the House and
I are now acting at the request of the Speaker.
The proposed appointment of Sam
Younger as chairman is for a two-year period, which comes on top of the
six years that he has already served with distinction. For many years,
Mr. Younger was at the BBC culminating as managing director
of the World Service. Following that, he was director general of the
British Red Cross Society. He became the first chairman of the
Electoral Commission when it was established after the Political
Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 was passed. He has
therefore been instrumental in seeing the commission through all the
issues that come with the setting up of a new organisation and
establishing it as an important and successful part of the
constitutional landscape.
Mr.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Do any of those
qualifications, impressive as they are, give Mr. Younger
expertise in
elections?
Nigel
Griffiths:
I am sure that it will be hard to match my
right hon. Friends expertise in such issues and, indeed, the
expertise of many hon. Members,
including your distinguished self, Mr. Hancock. I am sure
that Mr. Youngers previous distinguished career has
been enhanced by six years of acting as chairman and that he will be
happy to learn any lessons from my right hon. Friend during the
remaining two years that he will have in
office.
Mr.
Spellar:
May I reinforce the point that
Mr. Younger may be a worthy individual, but is not the
underlying problem with the Electoral Commission as perceived by all
hon. Members as well as the report by the Public Administration
Committee, which studied such matters, that all the people who sit on
its board, including the chairman, are, by definition, uninformed on
electoral matters? Moreover, their staff are uninformed on such
matters, too. Does not the CV that my hon. Friend read out to the
Committee demonstrate that underlying
problem?
Nigel
Griffiths:
I shall certainly ensure that the chairman,
subject to approval by the Committee today, is aware of my right hon.
Friends comments. I am sure that he will be happy to meet him
and colleagues of a similar mind to discuss such issues and to make
sure that he is as well informed as possible of relevant procedures and
processes.
Mr.
Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con):
The right hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. At the
moment, several challenges face the Electoral Commission. We saw that
at the time of the previous election, in respect of election fraud, and
the way in which our elections are conducted. The extension of the
chairmanship has obviously received the endorsement of all political
parties, but there is a worry that the continuation of the appointment
suggests a steady as she goes approach to the
commission. Will the Deputy Leader of the House explain how the
continuation of the post will affect the direction of the
commission?
The
Chairman:
Before I call the Deputy Leader of the House, I
remind members of the Committee that interventions should be short and
to the point. If they intend to make long statements, I would much
rather they did so in speeches, not
interventions.
Nigel
Griffiths:
The political process is going through a period
of considerable change and that will be challenging. Because of
Mr. Youngers involvement over the past six years, he
is in a good position to reflect on those changes. He was the first
chairmanof the commission when it was established by
the2000 Act. I will be happy to convey to him any concerns
that are raised by the Committee. I am also grateful to the hon. Member
for Somerton and Frome for asking that CVs be circulated so that hon.
Members have the opportunity to look at the experience of members of
the Electoral Commission.
Some Members of Parliament have
said that as people who have fought elections, they are the only people
fit to serve on the commission. That includes hon. Members who have
fought elections, lost, and come back. Mr. Younger will be
in no doubt about the concerns of the Committee. I am sure that
Mr. Speaker will be happy to facilitate a meeting between
concerned
Members and electoral commissioners. Of course, I will make sure that
the commissioners have a copy of
Hansard.
It is proposed that Pamela
Gordon be reappointed to the commission for a further six months. That
may appear to be a short extension. The reason is thatMs
Gordon had been expected to finish her work with the commission this
month, but has agreed to serve for a further short period to assist
with the arrangements being made for the next tranche of appointments
to the commission.
Mr.
Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): May I invite my hon.
Friend to bring Mr. Younger here to have a serious talk
about postal voting? I am not going to object to his reappointment. I
am deeply concerned that the rushed-through legislation on postal
voting will seriously reduce participation in both local and national
elections, should the present system be maintained. Given what has
happened in the past, I have no problem with the need for some
tightening of procedures. Howeverthis is a serious
matterI predict that the collapse of participation in postal
voting will mean that Britain becomes a country with one of the lowest
levels of participation in major elections. May I ask
him
The
Chairman:
Order. Mr. MacShane, you were not in
the room when I reminded hon. Members that if they were going to make
interventions, they should be short and to the point. If you intend to
make a speech, I suggest that you make it. However, I think that your
intervention was far too long.
Mr.
MacShane:
I apologise, Mr. Hancock. I thought
that that was a very short intervention.
Nigel
Griffiths:
I take to heart what my right hon. Friend said.
Indeed, all hon. Members want to see a certain robustness in the postal
voting system, but we also want to see postal votes made available with
a minimum of complication to all those who wish to exercise that
choice. I have put those points to the chairman of the Electoral
Commission, and he is aware of my concerns. We shall all be examining
the proposals that come forward very carefully, so that they can be
seen to be both fair and practical.
As hon.
Members will know, Pamela Gordon has had a long career in local
government. She has been chair of the Electoral Commissions
boundary committee, and therefore has a good working knowledge of the
issues that are of interest and concern to us.
On forthcoming appointments,
there is an existing vacancy in addition to the vacancy that will be
created by the completion of Pamela Gordons term of office. On
top of that, two more commissioners terms of office end at the
end of this year. I understand that Mr. Speaker and the
commission have agreed that it will be sensible to try to fill all four
posts through one recruitment exercise, which will be conducted over
the early part of this year. That would allow two vacancies to be
filled after July and the other two after January 2008. It would help
to develop a rolling pattern in terms of office, to which I referred
last year, and would assist continuity.
We are
grateful to Pamela Gordon for the work that she has done for the
commission and for her agreeing to serve for a further short period. I
shall ensure that the comments raised by my three colleagues today are
drawn to the commissions attention as early in the recruitment
process as possible. Obviously, there will be an opportunity for
further consideration at the appropriate time, but in the meantime, I
hope that the reappointment of the two commissioners will be supported
by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee and I commend the motion
to the
Committee.
4.41
pm
Mr.
Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): It is a
pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Hancock,
particularly as this is the first time that I have had the privilege of
leading for the Opposition in such a
Committee.
I
do not intend to delay the Committee any longer than necessary. To that
end, I am happy to say that Her Majestys Opposition agree with
the appointments of Sam Younger and Pamela Gordon. However, I share the
concerns expressed by my colleagues about the importance of applicants
having the requisite qualifications. It is fundamental to democratic
rights, particularly when Britain is in the business of exporting
democracy, that we have the best qualified people to monitor the
Electoral Commissions concerns. I am grateful to the Deputy
Leader of the House for explaining the reasons for Pamela
Gordons relatively short appointment.
Finally, I am
sure that you are aware, Mr. Hancock, that the Committee on
Standards in Public Life is undertaking an extensive review of the
Electoral Commissions work. The results are due on Thursday. I
appreciate the need to have this debate today given that the
appointments take effect on Friday. However, it would be in the best
interests of democracy if we had it after the results of the review,
particularly if that review refers to the appointment and performance
management of senior commission personnel. It might be that the Deputy
Leader of the House has prior knowledge to the contrary. If he does, I
would be grateful if he could enlighten the
Committee.
4.43
pm
Mr.
David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I, too, welcome
your chairmanship of the Committee, Mr. Hancock.
I am grateful
to the Deputy Leader of the House for outlining the proposals and to
the Leader of the House for responding to my request for the
circulation of curriculums vitae. As I have said previously, I think
that it is inappropriate for us to accept a name put before the
Committee without any supporting material. In this instance, the names
will be familiar to many members of the Committee because of the high
profile of the Electoral Commissions work over recent years.
Nevertheless, on principle, if the Committee is asked to consider an
appointment, its decision should be informed by supporting material,
which we have
received.
I
have no hesitation in supporting the reappointment of the two
individuals concerned. However, I have one thing to say about the
commission and its chairmanship. The commission has two prime
requisites if it is to work effectively. One is to be aware of
electoral procedures
and to be able to make informed comment on existing and future
procedures. As hon. Members said, that requires a working knowledge of
the electoral system. Pamela Gordon, as a previous chief executive and
chairman of the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior
Managers, undoubtedly has that experience, as do other members of the
commission.
The other
important attribute is independence. The Electoral Commission as a
body, and particularly its chairman, must be able to demonstrate
independence of political parties, which have vested interests in the
outcome of the commissions decisions. It is tempting to argue
that someone who has been there, done that, and subjected themselves to
the electoral process at parliamentary level should be appointed, but
they are parti pris and almost inevitably a member of a political party
with all that that implies for the capacity to take an objective view.
That is why an independent chair of the Electoral Commission is
important for public understanding of the integrity and independence of
the body as a
whole
Mr.
Spellar:
Can the hon. Gentleman imagine a legal appeals
body with no lawyers or a medical appeals body with no medics? Surely
some knowledge of the subject might be an
advantage.
Mr.
Heath:
The Electoral Commission has people who are
familiar with the electoral process and I invite the right hon.
Gentleman to inspect their credentials, not least those of one of the
names before us today, who has administered elections, for
heavens sake, and knows exactly what is required. It is a
spurious argument that has some cogency among those who may wish to
undermine some of the commissions decisions when it does not
support a prevailing view expressed by political forces in the House,
but that is a dangerous position.
The idea that the appointment
of the commissions chairman should be dependent on the outcome
of the Committee on Standards in Public Life is also questionable,
particularly given the press speculation today that the chairman of
that body may not be reselected because he is thought to have taken too
openly critical a view of some of the matters put before
him.
I
believe that these are the right appointments and that the Electoral
Commission has done good work, although it could do better in some
areas. It has required additional powers in some areas and Parliament
has now given it those powers. I look forward to it taking a much more
active role in ensuring the integrity of our voting system. Sam Younger
and Pamela Gordon are the right people to be involved in that
process.
4.49
pm
Adam
Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): I do not wish to detain the
Committee long. I echo the concerns of the Committee about the timing
of the appointments, the important issue of electoral fraud and other
such matters, and seek reassurance from the Deputy Leader of the House
on one or two matters.
Sam Younger is eminently
qualified for the job,not least because he is on the Windsor
Leadership Trusts board. I seek reassurance on what influence
the Government have over appointments, not in terms of what the
Committee is doing today in overseeing the reappointment of these two
individuals, but in terms of any discussions or pressure brought to
bear. Will the Minister reassure us that no consideration was given in
the reappointments to the outcome of the review to be announced on
Thursday? Also, in future, could some consideration be given to
appointing to such bodies Privy Councillors or Members who are coming
towards the tail end of their political careers, who will have built up
relevant experience during their time in
Parliament?
4.51
pm
Mr.
Ellwood:
I apologise for the length of my earlier
intervention. I have one comment to
make
[
Interruption.
]
The
Chairman:
Order. I ask Members to allow the Chairman, at
least, to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is a bit
unfair.
Mr.
Ellwood:
I am delighted to hear that you are keen to hear
what I have to say, Mr. Hancock, even if Labour Members are
not.
I emphasise the
question with which I started: can the chairman issue a statement of
intent when he begins his new appointment? We have heard that the
commission will face a number of challenges, including not only dealing
with the postal vote system, which has been mentioned, but harnessing
new technology.
My only
experience of getting in touch with the Electoral Commission was not
good. It was during the European elections, when I had cause to seek
clarification about a Liberal Democrat manifesto published in the
south-west. There were seven slots for MEPs, and the Liberal Democrat
manifesto had 12 photographs. Of those, only one was of a candidate
standing for the European Parliament. The other 11 were of
parliamentary candidates standing against me, although that election
was some years
away.
Mr.
Ellwood:
Absolutely. I sought clarification about whether
that was fair use of taxpayers money, as it was delivered as
part of the election address paid for by UK taxpayers. Unfortunately,
the Electoral Commission was unable to give me an answer; it said that
the matter was not its responsibility. In these difficult times, I seek
to question and clarify the powers of the Electoral
Commission.
Mr.
Heath:
Will the hon. Gentleman give
way?
Mr.
Ellwood:
I should be delighted to learn why there were so
many photographs. If the hon. Gentleman can provide an answer, I will
be glad to give way.
The
Chairman:
You might be delighted, Mr. Ellwood,
but I do not think that the Committee would
be.
Mr.
Heath:
If the hon. Gentleman wanted a reply to his query,
why did he not post it to the organisation that had the capacity to
deal with it and not to an organisation expressly forbidden by
Parliament to do
so?
Mr.
Ellwood:
The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. The
Electoral Commission could not give me any indication, clarification or
direction whatever. It did not know. Yet it is the first port of call
for many seeking clarification about elections and how money is spent.
Thank you for allowing me to participate, Mr. Hancock. I
look forward to the replies of the Deputy Leader of the
House.
The
Chairman:
I am looking round the room and, despite the
fact that many hon. Members have been indicating from a sedentary
position their wish to intervene, no one else wants to speak, so I
invite the Deputy Leader of the House to respond to the
debate.
4.54
pm
Nigel
Griffiths:
A number of points have been made, and I want
to ensure that all right hon. and hon. Members are correct in their
underlying assumptions. This is not a Government matter. I can clarify
that the Government have no role in it whatever except, I suppose, that
Parliament picks up the bill in some
ways.
In response to
the hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire, the appointment process
is outlined clearly in the 2000 Act, in section 3 and elsewhere. The
motion is not a Government but a House motion, and
Mr. Speaker is the overseer of the entire process. The
Government are consulted by Mr. Speaker in the same way as
party leaders and, if hon. Members have views to express about whether
the consultation process was effective, I suggest that they contact the
right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), the right hon.
and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and my
right hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) with
their views on that.
The hon.
Member for Bournemouth, East says that he had a complaint that he did
not feel was satisfactorily dealt with. Perhaps Mr.
Speakers consultation of party leaders about electoral
commissioners would be an occasion for raising such points. Of course
those with specific political involvement are excluded from appointment
as electoral commissioners, to try to ensure that the process is
independent. I know that Mr. Speaker goes out of his way to
ensure that that is so.
The debate has been informative
and has given right hon. and hon. Members an opportunity to air their
concerns. I undertake to ensure that those are drawn to the attention
of Sam Younger, the chairman. I invite hon. Members to take the steps
that I have outlined so that their views will be clearly heard in other
circles from which there may appropriately be input to the appointment
of future commissioners, to ensure that appointments will reflect as
far as possible the sort of experience that those hon. Members would
hope
for.
The
Chairman:
Before I end the sitting, I want to thank hon.
Members for their attendance, attention and good humour in conducting
the
debate.
Question
put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the motion in respect of the Electoral
Commission in the name of Mr. Jack
Straw.
Committee
rose at three minutes to Five
oclock.