The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Barrett,
John
(Edinburgh, West)
(LD)
Beresford,
Sir Paul
(Mole Valley)
(Con)
Brown,
Mr. Russell
(Dumfries and Galloway)
(Lab)
Cairns,
David
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Scotland)
Chope,
Mr. Christopher
(Christchurch)
(Con)
Gibson,
Dr. Ian
(Norwich, North)
(Lab)
Goodwill,
Mr. Robert
(Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con)
Hamilton,
Mr. David
(Midlothian)
(Lab)
Heyes,
David
(Ashton-under-Lyne)
(Lab)
Kumar,
Dr. Ashok
(Middlesbrough, South and East Cleveland)
(Lab)
Laxton,
Mr. Bob
(Derby, North)
(Lab)
Lazarowicz,
Mark
(Edinburgh, North and Leith)
(Lab/Co-op)
Liddell-Grainger,
Mr. Ian
(Bridgwater)
(Con)
Osborne,
Sandra
(Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
(Lab)
Roy,
Mr. Frank
(Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's
Treasury)
Singh,
Mr. Marsha
(Bradford, West)
(Lab)
Smith,
Mr. Andrew
(Oxford, East)
(Lab)
Swinson,
Jo
(East Dunbartonshire)
(LD)
Wishart,
Pete
(Perth and North Perthshire)
(SNP)
Wright,
Jeremy
(Rugby and Kenilworth)
(Con)
Yeo,
Mr. Tim
(South Suffolk)
(Con)
James
Davies, Committee
Clerk
attended the Committee
Tenth
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Wednesday 14
March
2007
[John
Cummings
in the
Chair]
Draft Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2007
2.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David
Cairns):
I beg to
move,
That the
Committee has considered the Draft Police, Public Order and Criminal
Justice (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential Provisions and
Modifications) Order
2007.
The
Chairman:
With this it will be convenient to discuss the
Draft Tourist Boards (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential Modifications)
Order 2007.
David
Cairns:
I thank the Committee, through
you, Mr. Cummings, for agreeing to take the two orders
together. I suspect that they may not be the most controversial
business before Parliament this afternoon.
I welcome the hon. Member for
Scarborough and Whitby to the Conservative Front Bench. It is the first
time that I have had the pleasure of welcoming someone to the Front
Bench in a Scottish Committee. I am disappointed not to see the shadow
Secretary of State for Scotland, but I am sure that he has pressing
constituency business that prevents him being here todayor
anywhere else, for that matter.
The orders
before us are both made under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998,
which allows for necessary or expedient changes in consequence of an
Act of the Scottish Parliament. I shall deal with the orders in
turn.
The
Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006
(Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2007 is consequent
upon an Act of the Scottish Parliament that received Royal Assent on 4
July 2006. That Act introduced three new police organisations in
Scotlandthe Scottish Police Services Authority, the Scottish
Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency and the Police Complaints Commission
for Scotland. The Act allowed for police constables from Scotland and
from United Kingdom-wide police forces to be seconded to the SPSA and
the SCDEA. Constables may also be recruited directly to the
SCDEA.
The order
makes a number of straightforward modifications to UK legislation so
that police members of the SCDEA may receive pensions, and so that
constables from elsewhere in the UK seconded to those organisations may
continue to belong to the Police Federation.
The 2006 Act also established
the post of Police Complaints Commissioner, who will be responsible for
overseeing the existing police complaints process in Scotland. The
order allows UK-wide law enforcement agencies operating in Scotland to
enter into agreements
with the commissioner to extend his remit to oversee civil complaints
made against those forces for which there is currently no oversight
arrangement.
The
order will also make provision for UK bodies such as the British
Transport police, that are regulated by reserved legislation, to
disclose information to the SCDEA and the Police Complaints
Commissioner without breaching any obligation of secrecy or other
restrictions placed on the disclosure of information.
The 2006 Act
extends the investigatory powers under the Regulation of Investigatory
Powers (Scotland)Act 2000 to the director general of the SCDEA
and revokes the powers exercised by the director general of the
predecessor organisation, the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency. The
order mirrors the 2006 Act by extending investigatory powers to the
director general under the equivalent Westminster
legislationthe Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.
That will ensure that the director general of the SCDEA has parity with
police forces and other law enforcement agencies when dealing with
cross-border
matters.
The order
also amends the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 and the Serious
Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 to replace references to the SDEA
with references to the new SCDEA.
The 2006 Act also allows
Scottish courts to impose football banning orders on individuals
convicted of a football-related offence, instead of or in addition to
any sentence handed down by the court. The order will give police and
courts in England, Wales and Northern Ireland powers to enforce
Scottish banning orders. Where a person is subject to a Scottish
football banning order and breaches it in England, Wales or Northern
Ireland, they will be committing an offence in England, Wales or
Northern Ireland. That mitigates the need for multiple banning orders
to be taken out in each of the jurisdictions against one
individual.
The second
order before us, the Tourist Boards (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential
Modifications) Order 2007, is far simpler and more straightforward. It
is made in consequence of the Tourist Boards (Scotland) Act 2006, an
Act of the Scottish Parliament that received Royal Assent on 30
November 2006. The Scottish Tourist Board is already operating under
the name of VisitScotland, but it is the 2006 Act, which comes into
force on 1 April 2007, that officially changes the name of the
organisation. So the order simply amends primary legislation by
removing references to the Scottish Tourist Board and substituting them
with references to VisitScotland. That applies to various pieces of
legislation.
The
order also amends the Development of Tourism Act 1969 by replacing
references to the Scottish Tourist Board with references to
VisitScotland. The Act also contains references to the board of the
Scottish Tourist Board and its maximum size. The order will amend these
references to reflect the changes made by the 2006 Act. That Act
removed the statutory requirement that there be area tourist boards, so
the maximum size of the board of VisitScotland has been increased from
six to 11 to take account of the wider role of the new organisation in
promoting tourism throughout Scotland. The order will amend the UK
statute book to reflect those changes.
The two orders are a
straightforward and sensible use of powers contained in the Scotland
Act 1998, and I commend them to the
Committee.
2.35
pm
Mr.
Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con):
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship,
Mr. Cummings. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for
Scotland for his kind comments. He said that the draft orders were not
contentious, which is perhaps the reason why I have been trusted to
come and represent the official Opposition.
The Scottish
Conservatives generally welcome the draft Police, Public Order and
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential Provisions and
Modifications) Order 2007 and voted for it at stages 1 and 3. The draft
order is a wide-ranging measure aimed at improving the justice
situation in Scotland and is to be welcomed. The Labour and Liberal
Democrat Executive have presided over a dismal record. Ensuring order
is the first priority of Government: crime blights lives and ruins
communities. It should not be excused, but condemned and punished. That
means drawing a clear distinction between right and wrong, and
restoring respect, discipline and decent values. There is no way that
the coalitions record in Scotland could be described as being
tough on crime or the causes of crime. Between 1999-2000 and 2005-06,
we have seen an 8 per cent. rise in total crime; an 11 per cent. rise
in crimes of indecency; a 53 per cent. rise in rape and attempted rape,
from 755 to 1,161 cases; and a 57 per cent. rise in crime relating to
vandalism. We have also seen a 19 per cent. rise in the handling of
offensive weapons.
Drug crime is
a particular problem north of the borderthere has been an
increase of 46 per cent. By way of a caveat, drug crime is not always
reported, so a rise in detected drug crime is in some cases a good
thing, but the figures are worrying. In 2005-06, there were 121 drug
crimes a day, and nearly one drug-related death a day336 a
yearand 1,252 methadone prescriptions were issued a
day.
We welcome
the order, containing as it does a range of measures to improve police
effectiveness, strengthen the hand of law enforcement bodies in the
fight against crime, including serious organised crime, and enhance the
safety of communities throughout Scotland. In order that both the
Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency and the Police Complaints
Commissioner for Scotland can carry out their remits, it is vital that
information can be legally disclosed to them. It is also important that
disclosed information is protected from widespread dissemination. As we
have seen in a case nearer to London than Holyrood, leaked e-mails can
be used to try to prejudice a case before a prosecution can be brought.
Other measures facilitate the work of the Police Complaints
Commissioner for Scotland and tie in the work of immigration and
Revenue and Customs officers.
The extension of Scottish
football banning orders to other parts of the UK is infinitely
sensible. Many Scots work south of the border. Banning orders given for
offences committed by people visiting their home team in Scotland at
the weekend should not leave a football hooligan or thug with the
opportunity to watch the English game without restriction, no matter
how inferior the standard of play.
The powers
related to the divulging of dates and place of birth, fingerprinting
and drug testing are welcome, as are the provisions on plea bargaining,
provided they are used wisely and in a measured way.
I have two
questions for the Under-Secretary on the issue of the football banning
orders that are already in force north of the border. What progress has
been made in recruiting staff? Is he satisfied that the structures are
in place and operating efficiently to enable the new cross-border
facility to function correctly?
Tourism is
one of Scotlands largest business sectors. It provides direct
employment for 200,000 people and generates spending by visitors of
more than £46 billion per year. Tourism in Scotland is
increasing partly as a result of some well-targeted marketing by
VisitScotland, which attracts visitors not only from the rest of the
country but from further afield. However, I am not sure whether
VisitScotland would like to take credit for attracting the large number
of midges that seem to accompany my forays north of the border as a
holidaymaker. Scotland has everything: winter sports, a spectacular
coastline, Edinburgh and other fine cities, mountains and hills,
lowlands, rivers and lochs.
We generally support the draft
measure and the change of name to VisitScotland, because that fits in
with the national strategy with Visit England or, dare I say it, Visit
Yorkshire. Scottish Conservative MSPs tabled unsuccessful amendments to
retain the official title of the Scottish Tourist Board. Does the
Minister think that retaining its official title but continuing with
the VisitScotland branding would enhance the status of the official
body and prevent imitation?
Removing the vestigial interim
area tourist boards is a nominal change. Is the Minister content that
far-flung parts of Scotland will be happy that they are getting their
fair share of promotion after the changes? How will Edinburgh fare as
the only European capital without its own tourist body following the
scrapping of the Edinburgh and Lothians tourist
board?
Increasing the
size of the VisitScotland board from six members to 11 is probably
realistic given the size of Scotland. What efforts is the Minister
making to ensure that there will be representation from all parts of
the country? What is the honorarium paid to the chairman and board
members? What is the cost of implementing the change from seven members
to 12 in total?
Finally, I make a plea for one
sector of tourism in Scotland that I am not sure gets a fair share of
promotionfield sports. Many people enjoy holidays that include
shooting, stalking and salmon fishing. I am reminded of the story about
the English gentleman who spent a week rod-fishing on a river in
Scotland, but caught only one fairly medium-sized salmon on the last
day. Turning to the gillie, he said, Do you realise that that
salmon has cost me £2,000? to which the gillie replied,
Oh, sir, its a good job you didnae catch two.
That story illustrates that people who come north of the border to
participate in country sports bring an awful lot of money with them.
Will VisitScotland give the field sports sector its fair share of
promotion, or will it feel bound by political correctness not to do
so?
We
hope that the order will strengthen VisitScotland and that more people
will do just that as a result. Her Majesty the Queen sets a wonderful
example by holidaying at Balmoral. After the measure is
introduced,there should be more reasons for more of us to do
the
same.
2.43
pm
Jo
Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I welcome you to the
Chair, Mr. Cummings. I am sure that it will be a delight to
serve under your chairmanship, however brief the sitting might be. I
start with the Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act
2006 order, much in which is to be welcomed, particularly the
introduction of an independent Police Complaints Commissioner. That is
an especially welcome step forward to give Scotland parity with the
rest of the UK regarding complaints
procedures.
I have a
few questions for the Minister about football banning orders. I think
that hon. Members on both sides of the House welcome any measures to
reduce hooliganism and keep football for those who genuinely want to
support their teams and enjoy the game. Under the order, bans that are
implemented in Scotland will apply in England and Wales, but will that
also work the other way around? If someone is banned in England or
Wales, will they be subject to the same restrictions in
Scotland?
I want to
touch on some of the concerns that have been raised in Holyrood about
the practical implementation of the banning orders, particularly on how
they will work for fans who misbehave at away matches. I understand
that it is somewhat more difficult to work such a ban when dealing with
police and security staff at away grounds who do not necessarily know
the troublemakers. Given that that is difficult to co-ordinate at away
matches across Scotland, I hope that some thought has been given to how
the implementation of the order will be co-ordinated across the border
and in the rest of the UK. I am sure that the problems can be resolved;
I know that some thought has been given to them and I wondered what
extra work had been done to clarify how they will work in
practice.
What data
sharing will there be on football hooligans, and will it be encouraged
Europe-wide and further afield? I appreciate that football governing
bodies and the police also have a role to play in that
respect.
Although it
is not directly relevant to this order, one of the most welcome things
in the Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006
was the new rule on DNA capture in Scotland. For the record, as with
many things, Scotland is leading the way for the rest of the UK in
defending civil liberties and not creating a huge database storing the
details of innocent people. I wish that the Government in Westminster
would take a leaf from Scotlands book in that
respect.
The tourist
boards order is uncontentious but particularly well timed as this week
is the first ever British tourism week and the second ever Scottish
tourism week. I am sure that all hon. Members will be promoting the
cause of VisitScotland and encouraging people to come to their
constituencies for fine holidays. My constituency boasts a potential
world heritage site in the Antonine wall and is the canal capital of
Scotland. Tomorrow, I will be visiting the new marina being built in
Kirkintilloch and I encourage all hon. Members to come and see it for
themselves.
I hope
that the Minister will be able to answer my
questions.
2.46
pm
David
Cairns:
I can be brief. I thank hon.
Members who have welcomed the measures. I have visited the constituency
of the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby, which is a very
beautiful part of the world. He made a couple of points about the
record of the Scottish Executive in restoring respect for law and
order. Frankly, he would have more credibility if his party had not
presided over the doubling of crime and the cutting of police numbers.
If we have any lessons to learn on combating crime, they are not from
the Scottish Conservative party. However, the hon. Gentleman did a good
job of auditioning for the soon-to-be-vacant role of shadow Secretary
of State for Scotland, and I wish him every success in his
promotion.
The
hon. Gentleman asked about the numbers of people with football banning
orders. It is very early days, but at the moment there is only one
football banning order in place, against a supporter of Airdrie. My
hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw shares the shame of
that. [Interruption.] It is only one, but that is a fairly
significant proportion of the Airdrie fan base. I am told that there
are 100 prosecutions in the pipeline and there are enough resources to
deal with them.
The
hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire also asked about football banning
orders. Her question highlighted the fact that the banning orders in
place in England do not have reciprocity in Scotland. That gap in the
circle needs to be closed and the Scottish Executive and the Home
Office are working closely together to do so. The police forces work
well together; if it is necessary to impose a football banning order in
Scotland, the police forces speak to one another and then they can put
it in place. That is unnecessarily bureaucratic and it would be simpler
if there was reciprocity, as the hon. Lady said.
The hon. Lady
was also right to say that it is important to ensure that football
banning orders in Scotland are recognised and respected Europe-wide.
There is a huge amount of international co-operation by police forces
across Europe on these issues. I say in passing that, unlike football
banning orders elsewhere in the UK, in Scotland they have an element
that means that people can be convicted of sectarian offences, too. It
is a tribute to the First Ministers commitment to getting tough
on sectarianism in
Scotland.
I want to
move on to
VisitScotland
Sir
Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I apologise for my
ignorance, but as hon. Members can probably tell from my accent,
football has a different meaning where I come fromthe ball is
slightly tweaked. Does the ban apply to other sports? Do all the 100
cases that are coming forward relate to football, or soccer as it is
known, or are other sports
included?
David
Cairns:
I will clarify that for the hon.
Gentleman shortly. There is a long list of organisations that arrange
sporting matches. The measure applies not only to football grounds and
matches, but to town centres, railway stations or anywhere else where
hooliganism might occur. Whether it can be applicable to sports played
with funny-shaped balls I am not entirely sure, but I will clarify that
and get back to him before I sit down, if that is possible.
I think that
everybody supported the name change to VisitScotland. This is an
entirely sensible use of the order; we are simply removing from various
legislation the words Scottish Tourist Board and
sticking in VisitScotland. I do not think that it will
result in a diminution of the organisations activity; far from
it. It is meant to focus its activity and push it up the agenda. I am
happy to give way for my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian to extol
the virtues and the beauties of
Midlothian.
Mr.
David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab):
When
we talk about increasing from six to 11 the number of people
representing VisitScotland, that does not diminish the local areas,
such as Midlothian, East Lothian or West Lothian, that could be
dominated by cities such as Edinburgh. There are some beauties, such as
Rosslyn chapel and the Scottish mining museum, in
Midlothian.
David
Cairns:
My hon. Friend is a tireless promoter of the
beauties and historical sites of his constituency. As a representative
of a part of Scotland that is not in a city, I would not be sanguine
about any moves that resulted in cities getting all the focus. I do not
think that that is what the measure is about. We are looking to have a
coherent tourist strategy across Scotland to get visitors there in the
first place. When they are there, there will be a variety of local
strategies for entertaining them. I hope that his fears are
misplaced.
To the hon. Member for
Scarborough and Whitby, I say that issues of appointment to the board
and honorariums, as well as the strategic plan of the board, are
matters for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. I
therefore do not have details of costs in front of me, but I will write
to him with them. They are devolved matters,
however.
I can confirm
for the hon. Member for Mole Valley that the ban applies only to
soccer, or association football. With the answer to those questions, I
commend the instruments to the
Committee.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Police, Public Order and
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006 (Consequential Provisions and
Modifications) Order
2007.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Tourist Boards (Scotland) Act
2006 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2007.[David
Cairns.]
Committee
rose at seven minutes to Three
oclock.