The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mrs.
Joan
Humble
Bone,
Mr. Peter
(Wellingborough)
(Con)
Butler,
Ms Dawn
(Brent, South)
(Lab)
Crabb,
Mr. Stephen
(Preseli Pembrokeshire)
(Con)
Duddridge,
James
(Rochford and Southend, East)
(Con)
Dunne,
Mr. Philip
(Ludlow)
(Con)
Etherington,
Bill
(Sunderland, North)
(Lab)
Foster,
Mr. Michael
(Worcester)
(Lab)
Griffith,
Nia
(Llanelli)
(Lab)
Hall,
Mr. Mike
(Weaver Vale)
(Lab)
Hanson,
Mr. David
(Minister of State, Northern Ireland
Office)
Henderson,
Mr. Doug
(Newcastle upon Tyne, North)
(Lab)
Lancaster,
Mr. Mark
(North-East Milton Keynes)
(Con)
McGrady,
Mr. Eddie
(South Down)
(SDLP)
Marris,
Rob
(Wolverhampton, South-West)
(Lab)
Mudie,
Mr. George
(Leeds, East)
(Lab)
Öpik,
Lembit
(Montgomeryshire)
(LD)
Raynsford,
Mr. Nick
(Greenwich and Woolwich)
(Lab)
Robertson,
Mr. Laurence
(Tewkesbury)
(Con)
Robinson,
Mr. Peter
(Belfast, East)
(DUP)
Walley,
Joan
(Stoke-on-Trent, North)
(Lab)
Waltho,
Lynda
(Stourbridge)
(Lab)
Glenn
McKee, Committee
Clerk
attended the Committee
Second
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Wednesday 21
February
2007
[Mrs.
Joan Humble
in the
Chair]
Draft District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2006
2.30
pm
The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. David
Hanson):
I beg to
move,
That the
Committee has considered the draft District Electoral Areas
Commissioner (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order
2006.
I
welcome you to the Chair, Mrs. Humble, and hope that we will
have a relatively uncontroversial debate today. I wish first to provide
some background to the order. In Northern Ireland, the boundaries of
local government districts and the number and boundaries of
the wards into which each district is dividedare drawn up by
the local government boundaries commissioner. The district electoral
areas commissioners role is to group the wards into
multi-member constituencies or district electoral areas for the
purposes of local elections in Northern
Ireland.
At present,
the district electoral areas commissioner can be appointed only after
an order giving effectto the local government boundaries
commissioners recommendations has been made. The purpose of the
order is to enable us to appoint the district electoral areas
commissioner at an earlier stage in the process, specifically as soon
as practicable after the appointment of the local government boundaries
commissioner. That is necessary because we hope to have elections to
local councils in June 2008: beforethe transfer, on 1 April
2009, of responsibility for the existing functions of district councils
and for additional functions that are being transferred from central
Government, following the review of public administration.
The order also adds the chief
survey officer of ordnance survey for Northern Ireland to the list of
assessors to the commissioner and makes minor corrections to the full
title of the registrar generalas it appears in the list of
assessors. The order is uncontroversial and I hope that the Committee
will welcome
it.
2.31
pm
Mr.
Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I also welcome you
to the Chair, Mrs. Humble. I have not had the pleasure of
serving under your chairmanship before and I regret that it is likely
to be brief. I have no objections to the order, so I shall not detain
the Committee.
2.32
pm
Lembit
Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I heard it said once
that the quality of a Chair is inversely proportional to the length of
the debate so, if our sitting is short, that will put you,
Mrs. Humble, head and shoulders above anyone under whom I
have served
recently.
The order is
uncontroversial. Lord Trimble asked a question in another place that
did not really receive an answer, so I shall ask the same question
again today. Why are we preserving the ward structure at all? As Lord
Trimble said, the wards do not seem to have had much significance for
40 years. What observation might the Minister make about
that?
2.33
pm
Mr.
Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): Like other members of
the Committee, Mrs. Humble, I hope to learn by your
chairmanship and discipline. If I transgress, I know that I will suffer
well for it.
The other
speakers so far have been brief, so it obviously behoves me to take up
the slack. We have problems with the order, even though the appointment
of the DEA commissioner within the terms of the local government
boundaries commissioner is not of huge significance. However, my party
is dissatisfied with the consultation process. It lasted only eight
weeks, from8 November to 5 January, and included the whole
Christmas and new year period. We were disgruntled that we did not have
adequate time to prepare for
it.
There are two
aspects to the problem. The Northern Ireland Offices guideline
suggests that a consultation period should last a minimum of 12 weeks,
yet we had only two thirds of that time. Moreover, the small amount if
information that was issued was completely devoid of a meaningful
interpretation of the proposals. No explanation was given of where a
line would be drawn or when suggestions would be made, and the street
maps provided were not relevant to cities. The Government supplied some
stuff later, but by then the process was well under way. All in all,
the consultation was too short and too little information was
provided.
I am subject
to correction by the Minister, but I draw attention to some of the
hearings that took place in January or February. All the Northern
Ireland parties were in no-action mode during that time, and were
distracted by other matters.
Be that as it may, however,
there is a fundamental flaw in the order. It is part of a process to
create seven super-councils from the 26 existing councils. I want to
put it on the record that every party in Northern Ireland except
oneSinn Feinopposed the concept of seven
super-councils. The Northern Ireland Local Government Association,
which comprises all the parties, big and small, has turned its face
totally against the proposals that the Government are pushing
through.
On other
issues, the Government say that they want to listen to people in
Northern Ireland, but they are not doing so through the elected
representatives there. The process of which this order is a part seems
to have a political dimension, in that it appears to favour one party
at the expense of the others. I want to draw the Committees
attention to that because it will be too late to do so later.
The reduction of local
government representation to seven super-councils will affect local
democracy and accountability. The areas suggested for the seven
super-councils were set out in previous statutory instruments, but
there are gross incompatibilitiespolitically, socially,
economically and every which way. It is amazing how the former
commissioner, under the diktat of the Northern Ireland Office, came up
with his amalgamations. I represent part of the Down district: the area
is about 86 per cent. nationalist, yet the changes mean that it will
suddenly be dominated by three Democratic Unionist party councils. I do
not expect equality or fair play subsequent to the
amalgamation.
The area
where I live has a concept of community development and there is a
considerable budget for that from local rates. Areas such as
Castlereagh, North Down and Ards, which are dominated by the DUP, have
virtually no such budget and no concept of community integration and
development. I worry about that.
The
Chairman:
Order. It is with some regret thatI
must cut the hon. Gentleman short, but I remindhim that the
order is narrowly framed. We are hereto discuss the functions
of the district electoral commissioner and the need to appoint a
commissioner at an earlier stage. A debate about the councils to be set
up is for another time, and I ask the hon. Gentleman to confine his
comments to the
order.
Mr.
McGrady:
I stand corrected, Mrs.
Humblehumbly corrected. I was coming to the juiciest part of my
comments, which I shall now be unable to make. I shall simply say the
word balkanisation, because that is what the process is
aboutthe balkanisation of Northern Ireland between east and
west. The area to the west of the Bann will be under Sinn Fein
dominance. We will ghettoise the area and divide communities in
perpetuity. I cannot develop that argument, Mrs. Humble,
because of your correct instruction, but those who decided that that
should be part of the process also decided our
future.
The
appointment of the district electoral areas commissioner in advance of
the local government boundary commissions conclusions suggests
the precipitousness that I hinted at earlier. One can foresee the
appointment being made before the Assembly,for which elections
will take place in two weeks on7 March, is in place. The
Assembly will reject the proposal, so why are the Government pushing
ahead against the wishes of the vast majority of people?
The Government say that they
hope that we will have a devolved AssemblyI will not be a
memberby26 March, and I encourage them to consider
reversing the process. There is no logic to it, nor to the haste,
methodology or politics involved. I want to put that on record, even
though I have no hope that the order will be dismissed. We are in a
crazy, crazy
situation.
2.40
pm
Mr.
Hanson:
May I revise my earlier comments? I said that the
order was uncontroversial, but the wider local government
reorganisation to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Down has
referred is
extremely controversial. I am trying to divorce the
two because the order provides a simple administrative way to determine
oversight for local government wards. I know that what I am about to
say in respect of the wider local government reorganisation is outside
the jurisdiction of the order, Mrs. Humble, but I hope that
you will bear with me for a moment. I remind my hon. Friend that not
all the legislation to put that reorganisation into effect has been
carried by the House yet. Moreover, if the House is very fortunate and
the devolved Assembly does return on 26 March, that legislation will
not be considered here after that date.
Three pieces of draft
legislation are outstanding.The Local Government (Boundaries)
Order, the Local Government Order and the Local Government (Transfer of
Functions) Order will be dealt with by the Assembly. I understand that
the question of local government reorganisation in Northern Ireland is
somewhat controversial, and I accept the strictures of my hon. Friend
the Member for South Down. All of those matters will be dealt with by
the incoming Assembly, which can reject all of the current Government
proposals if it is successful in restoring the Executive.
In the event of the Executive
not being restored, the Government have given a clear commitment that
they will proceed down the line of seven local councils. That measure,
which I again emphasise is non-controversial, simply puts the district
electoral areas commissionerin place before the Local
Government Boundary Commission makes its recommendations so that there
can be some synergy between the two and they can work hand in hand. It
is not intended in any way, shape or form to pre-empt the decisions of
an Assembly in relation to the seven other councils. Such matters can
be dealt with in due
course.
My hon. Friend
the Member for South Down mentioned consultation. We put in place an
eight-week consultation as opposed on that lasts 12 weeks. I made the
judgment that the electoral oversight of the wards was an
administrative matter and not a key political issue that will divide
the parties in Northern Ireland.
We wrote to the parties to
consult them on the order. We asked a number of questions, including
how many wards should be allowed for each districta matter
mentioned by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire. They responded within
the eight-week consultation and said that they did not want any changes
made to the order. Therefore, it is uncontroversial in the sense that
the response from the Northern Ireland parties was fairly
clear.
The order
needed to be debated in time for the appointment of a district
electoral areas commissioner this summer. Whatever the Assembly
decides, therewill still be a role for the district electoral
areas commissioner and we want to get that person in place by the
summer.
No party chose
to oppose the retention of the current ward structure in the order. I
hope that that goes some way to responding to the hon. Member for
Montgomeryshire, who mentioned that Lord Trimble had raised that point
in another place. The ward structure exists, and we put its retention
out for consultation. No one opposed the current proposals, so the
Government did not feel that they needed to change them. The order
merely retains the status quo.
Mr.
Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am not quite clear
why the order is being made now. If the person will not be appointed
until the summer, why could it not wait until the Assembly has met?
There is some suspicionamong Opposition Members at
leastthat the Government are trying to rush through certain
legislation before the Assembly is put into
place.
Mr.
Hanson:
No legislation affecting the reorganisation of
local government will come before the House of Commons before 26 March.
If a devolved Assembly is not secured on that date, the relevant
legislation will come before the House
subsequently.
After 26
March, if the devolved Assembly chooses not to proceed with local
government reorganisation, that is entirely within its gift. The House
of Commons cannot force it to take the legislation forward against its
will, as it is an entirely devolved matter. We are making some
preparatory regulations in relation to the organisation of ward
boundaries and electoral areas for the purposes of future local council
elections.
The
district electoral areas commissioners role, linked with that
of the boundary commissioner, is to determine the size of the electoral
ward areas for future local councillors. Today, I am simply putting in
place an opportunity to make very small changes so that the
appointments can be made during the course of this year, up to the
summer. The order means that the district electoral areas commissioner
will be in post if the Assembly decides to proceed. If it does not do
so, there will still be a role for the district area electoral
commission office. The order does not pre-empt the Assembly in any way,
shape or form.
Mr.
McGrady:
The Minister talks about the powers of a possible
Assembly after 26 March, but will it have the legislative power to
change the dynamic of seven super-councils to 12, 15 or
14?
Mr.
Hanson:
The Assembly has total competence over the
devolved matter of local government reorganisation. At the moment, I
and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my
hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshireno, Greenock and
Port Glasgow[
Laughter.] My hon. Friend the Member for
Inverclyde (David Cairns) has represented three different
constituencies in the time that I have known him and so I tend to get
confused. He has responsibility for these matters because the Assembly
is not sitting. In the event of the Assembly sitting on 26 March, it
will have responsibility for determining whether to progress with the
seven-council model, or to scrap it.
The role of the district
electoral areas commissioner is a non-devolved matter. The Secretary of
State makes the appointment because it is an election matter relating
to an election organisation. We are bringing forward very minor changes
to both the terms and operation of that role in order to put those
roles in synergy with the boundary commission. We want to ensure that
the two bodiesthe boundary commission and electoral areas
commissionwork together for the benefit of the people of
Northern Ireland in an entirely non-political way. The planning has no
relation to local government reorganisation, although a contingency
plan exists if the Assembly takes that reorganisation forwardor
in the sad event of the direct rule team continuing with that
responsibility.
It is
a simple, non-controversial matter and I commend it to the
Committee.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the draft District Electoral Areas
Commissioner (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order
2006.
Committee
rose at 11 minutes to Three
oclock.