Adam
Price: That is why I am asking the
Minister—obviously, it is the Minister who has political
authority in the Government. It would be interesting if he could give
the official line and the official definition of a successful outcome.
Also, of course, it is not just the letter of the agreement but the
spirit to which we are referring
here. On this day of
days, when my party has entered Government for the first time in our
history—I think that it was 86 minutes ago that we did
so—I do not want to strike too discordant a note. However, in
response to provocation by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, may I put
it on the record that I have no intention of crossing the Floor? I
think that I would feel as uncomfortable on that side as I do sometimes
sitting so close to some Conservative Members. Of course, the writ of
the coalition Government now formed begins and ends on the Severn
bridge. I am sure that that is a source of great relief to the right
hon. Member for Islwyn. Nevertheless, we look forward to continued
debates that are robust but hopefully also constructive, as we move
forward into this new era of Welsh
politics. Turning to
the matter in front of us, I have some misgivings that I have been able
to share with the Minister; some are about content and some are about
process. Regarding content, anything that seeks to set limits on the
National Assembly’s powers will clearly not receive much support
from a nationalist party; I am sure that the Committee will understand
that. The Minister said that the order seeks to set the boundaries in
terms of the current settlement. I would argue that it is the
minimalist interpretation of the current settlement that is unduly
narrow. Clearly the Minister and I disagree on that, but another
opportunity has been missed to have a more expansive interpretation of
the current settlement.
It strikes me
as odd that, for instance, even after going through the pain of a
referendum campaign—I am sure that there will be pain for some
of us—and securing the successful outcome of a yes vote, we find
that we have a law-making Parliament for the first time in our history
and the registration of local bus services is beyond its remit. That
does not strike me as being particularly consistent with what we are
trying to achieve in creating a full law-making National Assembly.
Indeed, the Assembly’s Economic Development and Transport
Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee have both asked the
Westminster Government on several occasions
for the devolution of the registration of bus services, in particular to
get away from the absurd situation whereby the traffic commissioner for
Wales has an office in Birmingham. In fact, some of the meetings held
with local bus companies are held over the border in England, which
does not strike me as appropriate. So there have been some missed
opportunities. For a
few months, of course, because of a slip of the parliamentary
draftsman’s pen, the safety of inland waterways was within the
legislative competence of the Welsh Assembly. Now it is being rudely
snatched away by the Westminster Government in this tidying-up
exercise. There are a
number of other areas where we have some concerns about the effect of
the statutory instrument. For example, in housing finance there is a
reference to adding an exception that covers housing benefit, but it is
unclear whether it covers council tax benefit. Will the Minister say
whether it will in any way inhibit the ability of the new
Administration in the Welsh Assembly to proceed with their plan in the
“One Wales” document to offer extra help to pensioners
with regard to council tax? Will it inhibit the ability of that
Administration to proceed with first-time buyer grants, which will be a
form of benefit provided to first-time buyers? I hope the Minister will
respond on that. On
the issue of water, which has always been very close to the heart of my
party, the hon. Member for Clwyd, West is clearly more animated by the
needs and concerns of English customers of Welsh water companies.
Unsurprisingly, I am more concerned about the Welsh customers of
English water companies. I am unclear as to the position of the Severn
Trent Water area within Wales after the statutory instrument is passed,
so perhaps the Minister will say a little on
that. On the issue of
inquiries in reserved matters, which was added to the exceptions, my
understanding is that the Assembly is currently empowered to hold
inquiries that touch, in part, on reserved matters. Such inquiries will
principally be focused on areas of devolved competence, but may have to
look at areas that are reserved. Will the Minister confirm that this
measure in no way changes the position set out in the Inquiries Act
2005, whereby the Administration are allowed to take evidence in areas
which are reserved at
Westminster? Finally,
on process, I hope that, on reflection, the Minister can agree that
while this statutory instrument has been seven months in the making, it
would have been wiser to have waited until the new Administration were
formed. I have no doubt that detailed work has been done by officials
in the Wales Office, in other Departments and in the Welsh Assembly
Government. However, we are talking about a change in the settlement
post-referendum, and the referendum will not be held in the next few
weeks. Would it not
have been better, therefore, to have waited for the new Administration
to be formed, so that both of the parties involved could have had an
opportunity to examine the issues from the perspective of the new
Administration? We knew that this situation was a possibility a few
weeks ago. I accept that it was probably more cock-up than conspiracy
and am confident that this will not set the tone under the new
political arrangements. On reflection, it might have
been better if the timetable had allowed the new Administration, and not
just the previous one, to provide some
input. 3.3
pm
Huw
Irranca-Davies: Thank you, Mr. Chope, for
calling me to respond to the many and various comments made on the
detail and the overall approach of the
order. I
will deal first with timing, which has been mentioned by all hon.
Members who have spoken. I alluded earlier to the painstaking work that
has gone on in Whitehall and in the Welsh Assembly Government in
preparing this very detailed and technical order. There was a
commitment under the Government of Wales Act 2006 to bring this measure
forward at the earliest possible opportunity, and the process has
proceeded regardless of any outside political
matters. My
predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen, West and South
Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger), made a commitment to this House to bring
this measure forward at the earliest opportunity, to set out the
delineations of the powers of Whitehall and the Welsh Assembly
Government. That is why the order is being laid; it was not laid
previously because of the rigorous examination of the wording in
schedule 7 by the Welsh Assembly Government and UK Government
Departments. I think everybody would agree that the current devolution
settlement is extremely complicated. It has not always proved easy to
define the devolved powers in succinct and accurate
terms. Let me deal
with the thrust of the order. The hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and
Dinefwr asked whether there has been a missed opportunity with regard
to considering the content of the order, and whether there could be
more discussion. The purpose of the order was not about such things,
however; it was very tightly to define the existing delineations. I do
not like the phrase, but this is, was always perceived to be and was
argued in the Government of Wales Act as being a tidying-up exercise
that would put those clear delineations down—no more and no
less. Its purpose is purely to enable technical corrections to be made
to details that could not be resolved within the time scale of the
Bill. The order makes
no change to the stated purpose and effect of schedule 7, which is to
reflect the scope of the existing Welsh Ministers’ functions, so
that if the Assembly acquired primary powers, those powers would cover
the functions of the Welsh Ministers.
Mr.
Jones: The Minister will recall that I reminded him of the
commitment that was made to introduce the order before the Assembly
elections in May. Why was that deadline
passed?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: In answer to the hon.
Gentleman’s queries, I point out that, as I think I made clear
both in my introductory comments and subsequently, given the depth and
complexity of the issues, it is far more important to ensure that the
information that we have before us is accurate. This is the single
order that the House is bringing forward, as a commitment made in
respect of the Government of Wales Act, to ensure that schedule 7 is
accurate and timely. I accept that that has
taken a little more time than we anticipated, but I do not accept any
criticism of the work that has gone on behind the scenes to deliver it.
Sometimes such matters take a little longer than is expected. I am
satisfied, as the Minister standing before this Committee, that we now
have an accurate representation of the current ministerial
powers. I
turn now to some of the other questions that have been asked. I
apologise that my responses will be in no particular order, but I shall
try to address each issue. The hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and
Dinefwr mentioned bus services. The registration of local bus services
has been excepted from the Assembly’s legislative competence,
because there is a unified system of traffic commissioners across Great
Britain. Although traffic commissioners are appointed by the Secretary
of State for Transport, they have a quasi-judicial role. As a result,
they operate largely independently of Government. The role of the
traffic commissioners is related to the power of Welsh Ministers to
give subsidies to bus services. Here we see the complexity: their role
is to ensure that bus operators operate their routes in accordance with
the details of the services that they have registered. As a result, it
is appropriate for that to be excepted. The Welsh Assembly agrees that
that reflects the current powers.
On economic
development and nuclear energy, the Welsh Ministers have a role in
planning decisions for electricity generation facilities below 50 MW.
However, energy policy, including the difficult decisions on whether
nuclear energy should play a role in meeting our energy needs in the
sustainable mix of sources, has always been a matter for the UK
Government in Wales as in England. Again, the order accurately reflects
what currently happens; it simply seeks to make it clear. The fact that
electricity generation and nuclear energy remain outside the areas
where the Assembly exercises executive functions, or where it might
have legislative competence following a successful referendum to that
effect, does not mean that local people and their representatives
cannot have their say. The UK Government’s current consultation
on nuclear energy offers the opportunity for the public and for
representative groups to set out their views. Furthermore, the Welsh
Assembly Government have been consulted, and will continue to be
consulted, on the UK Government’s energy proposals in so far as
they affect Wales.
There was a
query, again from the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr,
about the issue of inquiries. He asked whether we could clarify the
position in terms of previous statements, and whether there was any
intention to change the current position. I can give him the assurance
that there is none at all. The position set out in statements that are
on the record already, made in previous Sessions, stays exactly as it
is. The
hon. Member for Clwyd, West asked whether the Assembly lacks competence
with regard to hazardous substances. The answer is no. To be quite
clear on this subject, hazardous substances are already included under
the “Environment” heading, so they are within schedule 7,
and there is no intention to remove any competence for the Assembly.
That reflects the actuality. What we are trying to do here is avoid
repetition, because hazardous substances appeared twice in the original
document.
Mr.
Jones: Am I therefore to understand that, although the
Assembly has no competence in respect of new nuclear installations, it
has competence in respect
of nuclear waste? Is that correct? Furthermore, if that is indeed the
case, is there not likely to be potential for conflict between the
Assembly and
Parliament?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: If I can carry on addressing various
issues, I shall try to return to the hon. Gentleman on that issue
before I finish. A
query was raised about housing benefit. I would like to clarify matters
for the benefit of the Committee. On the subject of housing finance,
there will be an amendment to clarify that housing benefit and council
tax benefits are not included in the Assembly’s legislative
competence. As these are non-devolved subjects, that change is wholly
appropriate. I think
that I have dealt with inquiries. Let me check whether there are any
issues outstanding.
Adam
Price: I specifically raised the issue of council tax
benefit. If the Welsh Assembly Government proceed to provide an
additional benefit to pensioners, for example, is there anything in
this statutory instrument that would prevent them from legislating to
do that, even after a successful referendum? I realise that such a
referendum is what we are talking about
now.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that
intervention. If he is content, I would be happy to write to him to
clarify that
issue. The hon. Member
for Clwyd, West asked about water issues; he had a very technical query
about water companies that supply areas not only in Wales, but across
the border. Again, if he is content with this, I will happily write to
him to clarify exactly how that system will operate under schedule
7.
May I also
clarify another matter that the hon. Gentleman raised? The phrase
“including reservoirs” will be added to the water
resources management measure. That is to clarify that the Assembly
would be able to pass Acts in relation to reservoirs generally,
including their construction, enlargement and so on. The current
wording gives the Assembly competence only over the safety of
reservoirs, which does not accurately reflect the extent of Welsh
Ministers’ functions in this area. Also, in terms of water
resources, the addition of the word “regulation” to the
first exception reflects the current devolution settlement. So this is
very much a tidying-up exercise.
I think that I have been
through all the issues that have been raised, unless the hon. Gentleman
wishes to
intervene.
Mr.
Jones: I note that the Minister will be writing to me
about the question of water companies and I think that I know what his
answer will probably be. I also raised the issue of tidal impoundment,
which is a matter of some concern. Perhaps he could let us have an
explanation of that issue
too.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: Again, if the hon. Gentleman is content, I
am more than happy to write in detail on that particular matter to
satisfy his query.
Mr.
Jones: Yes, I am content, but I would
say that this illustrates the need for proper pre-legislative scrutiny,
which we have not had on this occasion. Perhaps the Minister could bear
it in mind that these issues do arise, and that it is important that
Members should be satisfied on them. As I have already said, I do not
propose to make an issue of the order today, but a warning note ought
to be struck, which he should bear in
mind.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: I think that it would be right to say that
this particular policy area is one of the most complicated in the
devolution settlement. During the passage through Parliament of the
2006 Act, it was acknowledged that the area would have to be looked at.
I am confident that we can write to the hon. Gentleman with detailed
answers to his queries, but I am not in a position today to answer him
in the detail that he requires.
The other
issue raised was the referendum. It is fair to say that the 2006 Act
provides a mechanism for triggering a referendum on the Assembly in
respect of primary legislative powers. It also enables the Welsh
Assembly
Government to seek legislative opportunities on specified matters so
that they can deliver policy priorities in key areas such as education,
health, the environment and combating child poverty. I regard as one of
my key priorities facilitating this new and exciting Order in Council
process. However, any consideration on the timing of a future
referendum would, as I said in my introductory remarks, need to take
account of the successful bedding down of these new powers and the
level of support among the Welsh public for full law-making powers. For
all those reasons, a referendum would not be embarked upon
lightly. With those
remarks, I am content to offer the order to the Committee for its
satisfaction.
Question put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Amendment of Schedule 7 to the Government of
Wales Act 2006) Order
2007. Committee
rose at seventeen minutes past Three
o’clock.
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