Mr.
David Jones: It is a pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship, Mr. Cummings. I am grateful to the Minister
for his clear exposition of this short order, which relates to three
disparate and important functions and is, therefore, of some
considerable importance. As I mentioned earlier, the draft order has
been accompanied by a lengthy explanatory memorandum that elucidates
the order’s purpose—albeit in somewhat legalistic
language. The first
function to be transferred to the Assembly by the order is the power
that is currently vested in the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make
census regulations, which would include, as the memorandum makes it
clear, a prescription for the precise content of the census form. The
proposed transfer appears to have been prompted, to a large extent, by
the controversy over the absence of a tick-box in the 2001 census form
to allow respondents to indicate that they were of Welsh nationality.
That concern was understandable, particularly in the post-devolutionary
environment. It is
right that respondents should be able to indicate that they are of
Welsh nationality and any development that facilitates that will be
welcomed by the Conservative party. Similarly, I hope that any future
census form will make provision for people who feel that their national
identity is best defined as British and Welsh—and there are many
of those. It must not be forgotten that the primary, overriding purpose
of the census is to collect accurate, valuable statistical information.
That should continue to be so after that function is
transferred. A number
of matters that arise from the order require clarification and are not
fully explained in the memorandum. Perhaps the Minister will assist me
on the following points. Paragraph 7.2 of the memorandum says that the
order has been agreed
between “the Economic
Secretary to the Treasury and the Registrar General for England and
Wales”. I touched on that
in my point of order, but I should appreciate the Minister’s
telling the Committee what were the terms of that agreement. Given that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer currently deals with census returns,
why did the Economic Secretary agree to the
order? Paragraph 7.5
says: “The
function ... of making a Census Order is exercisable by Her
Majesty in Council”,
on the recommendation of a Minister of the
Crown. Which Minister exercises that function? Article 4 of the draft
order makes it clear that no recommendation can be made by the
Minister “unless the
Assembly has been consulted about the making of that
recommendation.” Clearly,
section 22 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 has not been
invokedĀ so as to require the Assembly’s consent to the
making of such a recommendation. Perhaps the Minister will confirm
that. What form will the consultation take? How long is the
consultation period expected to be? How will the result of the
consultation be taken into account bythe Minister before
making the recommendation for the making of an Order in
Council? The next
matter was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley.
Given that the making of the census regulations will be the
Assembly’s responsibility, to what extent is it envisaged that
it will liaise with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that the
Welsh census regulations complement those made for the rest of the UK,
so as to provide census forms that give the statistical information
that is required UK-wide? What protocols is it proposed will be put in
place for that purpose between the Office for National Statistics and
the relevant Department of the Assembly? Has the Wales Office been
involved in the process of agreeing that element of the order? It is
clear that it was involved in the other two elements, but not whether
it was involved in that one.
What effect will the Statistics
and Registration Service Bill have, when enacted, on the functions to
be transferred to the Assembly pursuant to the order? Why has the
Financial Secretary to the Treasury confirmed that he is content to
transfer those functions to the Assembly when the explanatory
memorandum makes it clear that it was the Economic Secretary to the
Treasury who was engaged in the agreement with the Registrar General
for England and Wales? It is clear that there will remain a single
Registrar General for England and Wales, who will be responsible for
the census in England and in Wales. What practical difficulties, if
any, does the Minister envisage arising as a result of such an
arrangement, and how will they be addressed?
Perhaps the Minister will
consider paragraph 9.6 of the explanatory memorandum, which indicates
that “additional administrative costs” will be generated
as a result of the Assembly’s greater involvement in census
planning, although it also indicates that those costs will be small.
What estimate has been made of those additional costs?
[Interruption.] Well, how small?
Paragraph 9.7 of the
explanatory memorandum refers to an exchange of letters between the
Assembly’s Minister for Finance and the Financial Secretary to
the Treasury on the principles of a funding agreement. Again, that is
explained in rather scant detail, so could the Minister please expand
on the principles of the
agreement? I turn now
to the proposed transfer of functions under section 156 of the
Environmental Protection Act 1990. The order proposes to transfer the
function of making regulations pursuant to part II of that Act, which
relates to waste on land. The explanatory memorandum makes it clear
that, under the powers
currently devolved to it, the Assembly Government usually seek to keep
the waste management regulatory framework the same in Wales as in
England, for the sensible reason of avoiding inappropriate cross-border
waste flows and the consequential adverse impact on business. Paragraph
7.10 of the explanatory memorandum explains that the principal
advantage of section 156 powers is that “they are not subject to the same
limitations as attached to ... section
2(2)” of the European
Communities Act 1972, particularly in relation to the maximum penalties
that may be imposed in the event of any breach. The Minister has
already touched on that.
So far, as the Minister has
indicated, regulations under part II of the Environmental Protection
Act 1990 have been made by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs. Is it anticipated that, as a result of transferring
the proposed functions to the Assembly, different regulations will be
applicable in Wales and England, or will they remain the same? If they
remain the same, what practical benefit will derive from making the
order? Given that this is an environmental matter and frequently best
addressed UK-wide, might there not be a persuasive argument for
suggesting that it would continue to be desirable to have a single,
overarching management structure for the regulations?
We have heard that the order
relates only to part II of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. Are
there any proposals to transfer functions to the Assembly in relation
to parts of the 1990 Act that are not already transferred, such as part
VI, which relates to genetically modified organisms? What consultations
have taken place with stakeholders on the proposed transfer? Paragraph
8 of the explanatory memorandum suggests that the current position is
untidy and confusing to stakeholders. What evidence does the Minister
have that such confusion exists?
I now turn to the proposed
transfer of functions under the Water Industry Act 1991. Paragraph 8.4
of the explanatory memorandum makes it clear that the anomaly to be
corrected by the transfer relates to conditions that have arisen from
the enactment of the Water Act 2003. Will the Minister explain why that
anomaly was not noted
previously? The next
matter was touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley.
Paragraph 8.5 states that some functions are to
be “transferred to the
Assembly on a water undertakers’ area
basis”. That relates to
Dee Valley Water and Dwr Cymru. Given that the areas of both those
authorities extend beyond the boundaries of Wales to large parts of
Cheshire and Herefordshire, am I correct in understanding from what the
Minister said that the proposed functions will affect consumers in
England? If so, what democratic accountability will there be in
relation to actions undertaken by the Assembly that affect those
consumers? They do not return Members to the Welsh Assembly. Are they
to be deprived of a democratic voice in the
matter? Similarly,
will the Assembly have the right to make regulations that affect the
parts of the Severn Trent Water area that are in Wales? I understand
that that will not be the case, but perhaps the Minister can
confirm that. In any event, consumers in those areas return Members to
this Parliament. Will
the Minister explain why the Minister of State for Climate Change and
the Environment, rather than the Secretary of State for Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs, agreed to the transfer with the appropriate
Assembly Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales? Will he also
indicate the likely costs of the preparation of regulations consequent
upon the present transfer of functions
order? I wish to touch
upon one or two more general matters that arise from the order. The
first was raised by my right hon. and noble Friend, the Lord Roberts of
Conwy, when the order was considered in another place. Our time in
Committee is limited to a mere one and a half hours, and I have already
raised a large number of queries on the order, to which I am sure the
Minister will respond in detail. No doubt, other members of the
Committee will wish to make points. There is a risk when discussing
such matters that most, if not all, of the 90 minutes allotted will be
exhausted. I hope
that the Government will beware of attempting to push through
Committees too many items of seemingly unconnected legislation that
require substantial scrutiny. In this Session, the first applications
will, no doubt, be made for Orders in Council on the transfer of other
primary legislative functions to the National Assembly. We are still
waiting to find out what the mechanics of the making of such orders
will be, but I hope that they will not be subject to such abbreviated
debate. I echo the
comments of my right hon. and noble Friend on the extraordinary brevity
of the debate on the order in the Welsh Assembly. Section 22 of the
1998 Act makes it clear that no functions may be transferred without
the approval of both Houses of Parliament and a resolution of the
Assembly. Will the Minister explain why the order was put before the
Assembly before being considered in Parliament? Frankly, that seems to
be putting the cart before the horse. Each House, and the Assembly, is
expected to carry out important scrutiny functions when such orders are
considered. They should not be rubber-stamping operations, but that was
what the Assembly debate, if such it can be called, appeared to be.
Will the Minister convey my criticisms to the appropriate Assembly
Minister? I await the
Minister’s replies to my detailed questions, but, subject to
those replies, it is unlikely that we shall oppose the
order. 2.59
pm Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a great pleasure to
serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr.
Cummings. In view of
the large number of questions that the hon. Member for Clwyd, West
posed to the Minister, I shall be brief. I shall say from the outset
that we welcome the order and the transfer of functions that it sets
out. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the debate in the National Assembly,
in which only two Members spoke—the Minister and one of my
colleagues. Perhaps the turnout here reflects the fact that our
willingness to devolve powers exceeds the National Assembly’s
willingness to receive them.
There will be particular
satisfaction that the census is being addressed after the 2001
experience of the denial of the Welsh tick box, despite there being
Irish, Scots and English ones. It was amazing that there was no Welsh
tick box in Wales—an omission that rightly caused a lot of
offence, particularly when one official in the Office for National
Statistics suggested that people in Wales should fill in the
“Other” category and write “Welsh” next to
it. The capacity of
the Assembly to be consulted on the census order and to make
regulations on the census and how it is conducted is welcome. I hope
that I do not detect any inconsistency in what the Minister was
saying—perhaps he can reassure me. In the explanatory
memorandum, paragraph 9.1 on retaining sections 1 and 3 of the Census
Act 1920
reads: “The
proposed transfer of functions in relation to future Censuses of
Population for Wales would give the Assembly the right in law to be
consulted on the Census Order, and the power to make Regulations for
the Census in Wales. It would give the Assembly greater influence in
the decisions the Office of National Statistics ... takes and the
final say”— the
final say— “on the
content of the Census form in
Wales”. I heard the
Minister twice use the phrase “if there is a sufficiently strong
case”. I am still slightly unclear on where the final decision
will lie. I hope that it will be in the hands of the National Assembly
and that that a “sufficiently strong case” referred to
the Assembly’s more general capacity to influence other matters
on the census. I
reiterate the point made by my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth in
another place about the inadequacy of data, particularly relating to
the health needs of Wales. Good statistics from the ONS, particularly
on the regional health needs of Wales, will go a long way to make the
case for resource allocation, and the census has a role in that. Like
others, I would be interested to know what estimate—we heard
that the sum was small—has been made of the financial
implications for the National Assembly.
Finally, the transfer of power
under section 156 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 is also
welcome, as it gives the Assembly the power, rather than giving the
Secretary of State the power on the Assembly’s behalf. That is a
sensible tidying-up operation that is consistent with the
Assembly’s extensive responsibilities for environmental matters,
including waste management.
The Liberal Democrats welcome
the order, but I want a little clarification on where the ultimate
decision on the content will rest. That is the key
point. 3.3
pm Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I, too, welcome you to the
Chair, Mr. Cummings. I shall concentrate my brief remarks on
the census. I reiterate the comments made by the hon. Member for Clwyd,
West; we in Plaid Cymru, too, welcome the change with open
arms. I hope that, in
the future, the census will provide a review statistics for us in Wales
that can be used by social policy academics and analysts, one of which
I
used to be. The bane of my life was that I had to contend with the
mythical agglomeration of England and Wales, and the statistics were
not disaggregated in a way that would make them usable to people such
as me. However, I shall move on to consider the order itself. The Minister’s
reasonable and measured terms convey little of the anger—not
anger, but outrage—felt among many people in Wales in 2001,
which led to otherwise law-abiding people considering not filling in
the census form. That is a hugely undesirable situation, as I am sure
all hon. Members would agree.
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