Mr.
Evans: Speaking as someone who is Welsh and who used to
live there, I cannot see any reason at all why people ought not to be
able to tick a box that says that they are Welsh and living in Wales.
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it might be useful to learn how many
Welsh people are living in England, and in Scotland and Northern
Ireland,
too?
Hywel
Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.
Cosmologists suggest that there is a lot of dark matter out there, and
in census terms there is a lot of dark matter in England and in
Scotland and Northern Ireland—that is, the Welsh, particularly
the Welsh speakers, who live mainly in England. I understand that there
are about 30,000 of them. It would be also be interesting to know about
that, although perhaps I am running ahead of
myself. I was saying
that there was a great deal of outrage and unhappiness in Wales about
the 2001 census. The national statistician was perceived, rightly or
wrongly, as arrogant and unwilling to listen to the
arguments—then he was willing to listen, but not prepared to
move. There was a certain amount of confusion. I hope that, given the
transfer, we can avoid that unhappy situation in
future. Hon. Members
neglected to say that we in Plaid Cymru distributed ready-made stickers
to attach to the 2001 census form—with the encouragement, I
might say, of 60 Welsh town councils and eight Welsh local authorities,
all of which were in favour of a tick box for Wales. We distributed
190,000 of the things. I do not know how many were used, but it is a
measure of the unhappiness felt that 190,000 individuals were ready and
willing to take one, if not attach it to the
census. I hope and
trust that the situation will not be repeated. Is there any
recommendation on how the Assembly should consult with the population
of Wales in respect of making a recommendation? I suppose that that is
a matter for the Assembly. However, I hope that it will consult as
widely as possible. I have black friends who want to call themselves
“black Welsh”; I do not know whether that could be
accommodated. It has already been mentioned that some people would like
to call themselves “British”, and that should
be accommodated as well. Perhaps that complexity can be considered
before the next census. I hope that there will be as wide an ability as
possible for the census form to be modified for specifically Welsh
needs.
Mr.
Evans: I am not even sure about tick boxes any
more—the issue goes wider than that. Surely there should be a
blank space in which people can describe
themselves as they see themselves. Polish and Ukrainian people are
moving into Wales and have done so for many years: Polish Welsh,
Ukrainian Welsh—the list is
endless.
Hywel
Williams: For salience, identities should be Welsh,
British or Scottish. That is the salient point. As someone with a
passing knowledge of statistics, I think that a large number of
categories would be a nightmare. We should confine the options to the
most obvious
ones. Lastly, I should
like to make a couple of broader points. Following the 2001 census,
Plaid Cymru made several calls for an inquiry of sorts into the
decision-making process leading up to it. Can the Minister tell me
whether there was such an inquiry and what conclusions were reached? My
party also called for an office of national statistics for Wales in the
hope that such a problem could be avoided in
future. 3.8
pm
Nick
Ainger: I am grateful to Opposition Members for their
contributions, which are genuinely welcome. As the hon. Member for
Clwyd, West asked a large number of questions, I shall first deal with
some of the points made by other
Members. The hon.
Member for Ceredigion asked about the extra questions that the Assembly
may wish to see on the census form. I assure him that that decision is
for the Assembly. If it wanted a certain question about nationality or
whatever, that would be agreed. Obviously, a lot of consultation will
take place in the next few months. We want to get it right; we do not
want a repetition of what happened in 2001, and that is one of the main
reasons why we are discussing the order.
Mr.
Evans: The Minister says that questions would be agreed,
but they would come only at a cost. Clearly, the Treasury would say,
“If you want six other questions, we are amenable, as long as
the Welsh Assembly Government know that they would have to pay this
much for them to
appear.”
Nick
Ainger: Yes, as I said, I do not think that there would be
a huge cost attached to sticking a question on the form; it is the
analysis that would incur costs. The basic principle is that, if the
additional question or questions add cost to the process, the Treasury
would expect the Assembly Government to pay, and the money would come
out of their general budget. That is perfectly reasonable.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon
asked whether an inquiry followed the problems in 2001. The background
is that, by the time that the Assembly was formed in 1999, the key
decisions on the 2001 census had already been taken. Clearly, the
Assembly is heavily involved in the planning and preparations for the
2011 census and is represented at all levels of census governance. With
the order in place, I am confident that there will no repetition of
what happened in 2001.
The hon. Member for Clwyd,
West, raised a number of issues that concern all three parts of the
order. On the relationship between the Economic Secretary to the
Treasury and the Registrar General, both agreed to give the Assembly a
formal role in agreeing future census forms in Wales. The Chief
Secretary to the Treasury agreed to the order in July. Although
particular reference may have been made to a different Treasury
Minister, at the end of the day, the Chancellor has responsibility for
the order and the regulations. On UK comparability, the hon.
Gentleman asked whether the order could lead to a census that did not
allow comparison between the UK and Wales and so cause confusion. I am
assured that that is not the case. The ONS will be responsible for
carrying out the census in Wales; the Registrars General of England and
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and the Welsh Assembly’s
chief statistician have agreed the intention to promote UK
harmonisation—subject to the need for approval by the relevant
legislatures, where appropriate. All the significant players are
working together to ensure that comparability is established, not only
between Wales and the UK as a whole, but presumably between Wales,
Northern Ireland, Scotland and England.
Mr.
Jones: Does a written protocol on those matters exist, or
is it intended that one will be developed? If there is a protocol, is
it possible to obtain a copy?
Nick
Ainger: My understanding is that there is agreement
between all the players, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman to
confirm whether there is a written protocol.
I have mentioned the cost on a
couple of occasions, so I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is satisfied
in that regard. The cost of additional questions would fall on the
Assembly. He also asked about the control ofthe census: I
confirm that funding will remain the responsibility of the ONS, as will
the conduct of the census throughout the UK. The Assembly will have to
meet the costs only of any variations that it wishes to make to the
census in Wales. The
hon. Gentleman referred to the Statistics and Registration Service
Bill, which was introduced recently and in which an amendment to
section 3 of the Census Act 1920 is proposed to require the Chancellor
to consult the new statistics board that would be set up under the
proposed legislation, before making any regulations under this
provision. In anticipation of the order, the Statistics and
Registration Service Bill has been drafted to require the Welsh
Ministers to consult in relation to Wales. I think that hon. Gentlemen
have raised points about that
consultation. I shall
now respond to the points that have been made about the part of the
order that deals with land
waste.
Mr.
Jones: The Minister has not quite touched upon one or two
other matters, which he could perhaps address before we leave the
census issue. He will recall that I raised the issue of consultation
with the Assembly before making a recommendation for the census. What
form will that consultation take and have any protocols been put in
place? I raised another matter about whether the Wales Office had
agreed to that element of the order? That is not clear from the
memorandum that accompanies the draft order. I have
a final point about the single registrar for England and Wales, who, of
course, will remain when the order has been made and be responsible for
the census in England and Wales. Has that been considered and is it
anticipated that difficulties will arise as a result of there being one
registrar for England and
Wales?
Nick
Ainger: I shall respond quickly to those three questions.
On the Statistics and Registration Service Bill, I mentioned that it
will contain a requirement for Welsh Ministers to consult in relation
to Wales. I can assure the Committee that, as the hon. Gentleman should
know, the Welsh Assembly and Government are not shy about
consultation.
Mr.
Jones: The Minister is missing the point, I am afraid.
Forgive me—I have not made myself clear. The consultation that I
was talking about relates to article 4 of the draft order, which makes
it clear that no recommendation can be made by the Minister—a UK
Minister, not an Assembly Minister—unless the Assembly has first
been consulted.
Nick
Ainger: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for
posing his question again. Is he asking what form of consultation will
take place between the Treasury, or the Office for National Statistics,
and the Assembly? Presumably, as I explained earlier, the Assembly will
be represented at all levels of the census formulation. I am still not
clear about the point that he is
making.
Mr.
Jones: Paragraph 7.5 of the explanatory memorandum
explains that
the “function ... of
making a Census Order is exercisable by Her Majesty in
Council”, on the
recommendation of a Minister of the Crown, who, of course, would be a
UK Minister. Article 4 of the draft order makes it clear that no such
recommendation can be made by the UK Minister unless the Assembly has
first been consulted. What form is that consultation going to take, how
long is it likely to take and how is it envisaged that the result of
the consultation should be taken into account by the Minister before
making the recommendation for an Order in
Council?
Nick
Ainger: As I said in my opening remarks, a Minister of the
Crown can recommend that such an order be made, and under section
22(1)(c) of the Government of Wales Act 1998, it is possible to direct
that the function can only be exercised after the Minister has
consulted and/or obtained the consent of the Assembly. The hon.
Gentleman is asking how that process will take place. It would be for
the Assembly to decide how it consults, but I imagine that at some
point, if a Minister is minded to consult, he would write formally, and
after May 2007, that would be done directly to the relevant Minister in
the Assembly to seek their consent to the
order.
Mr.
Jones indicated
dissent.
Nick
Ainger: I think that I have been as clear as I can be. If
a Minister is minded to use section 22 of the Government of Wales Act
1998, he has to have consulted and/or received the consent of the
Assembly. After May 2007, he will have to seek consent not from the
Assembly but from the relevant Assembly Minister, and it will be up to
that Minister to decide whether to put the proposal before the Assembly
or to consult on it. I think that I have covered the
issue. The second
question was whether the Wales Office was consulted. I do not think
that I would be standing here if we were not involved in the
consultations. It might be due to an omission that we were not listed,
but we should have been; otherwise, I would not be here. I can confirm
that there will be a single registrar for England and Wales, and that I
cannot see any problem arising from that.
Moving on to the waste on land
issue, I am advised that there will not be different regulations in
England and Wales as a result of section 156. The transfer merely
allows the Assembly both options—to make composite regulations
with DEFRA more regularly, and to make its own regulations in relation
to Wales where necessary.
The hon. Gentleman also asked
why only section 156 is being transferred—what about, for
example, genetically modified crops? We have had a wide ranging
discussion, but I do not want to get into a debate about GM crops, and
I am sure that you do not either, Mr. Cummings. Let me say
merely that no further transfers of section 156, as it applies to other
parts of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, have been discussed.
That is not to say that there will be no further approaches and
discussions in future.
On the waste regulations, the
proposal is that the regulations will be the same in England and Wales.
I thought that I had explained in my opening remarks that the issue has
been highlighted because the two main water companies that operate
mainly in Wales also cover a small part of England. It is essential,
therefore, that the order aligns the sections that I quoted at length
with the boundaries of those water companies.
The hon. Gentleman also asked
about the costs that relate to the preparation of regulations. Those
costs will come out of the running costs of the Assembly’s
environment protection and quality division and the legal services
department.
Mr.
Jones: The Minister will recall that I raised the question
of democratic accountability, which I do not think that he has
addressed.
Nick
Ainger: I was coming to that.
Mr.
Jones: Forgive me, I thought that the Minister was moving
on.
Nick
Ainger: These are highly technical matters, relating to
water fittings, and they apply in both England and Wales. I can
understand that, in theory, people might have issues to raise about the
effect of the regulations. If such people live in England, they can
take their problems to their Member of Parliament, who can raise it
directly with the relevant Assembly
Minister. If there are any problems, I suggest that people contact me or
my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and we will ensure that
matters are addressed. I emphasise that these are technical matters
relating to pipe fittings.
Mr.
Jones: Is the Minister therefore acknowledging that there
is no democratic accountability?
Nick
Ainger: I will not go through what the pipe fittings are,
because I do not want to delay the Committee unreasonably. I have yet
to hear anybody in my surgery claim that there is a democratic deficit
in relation to pipe fittings. We must be realistic. I cannot predict
that there will never be a problem with pipe fittings that people want
to raise with their elected representative. What I have said to the
hon. Gentleman is that, if there is a problem, there are channels that
people can use to address it.
The hon. Gentleman also
mentioned the length of the debate in the Assembly. I do not want to
comment on the procedures in the Assembly, in the same way as I would
expect no Assembly Member to comment on our proceedings.
The hon. Gentleman made other
points about the situation post-May 2007, and the Order in Council
process. It is important that the Assembly gives a clear indication
about whether or not it is in favour of something. It seems pointless
for us to go through our proceedings and to give it powers if it has
not agreed that it wants them. His point that we should have completed
our proceedings here before it debated the issue puts the cart before
the horse. It is eminently sensible that, when the Assembly considers
such orders or Orders in Council, it should debate them, reach a view
and then ask Parliament to transfer whatever powers it requests. That
is the best way to proceed; it is a logical way of doing things. If we
took a different approach, we could end up with the bizarre situation
where Parliament agrees to transfer powers to the Assembly that the
Assembly then says it does not want.
I hope that I have
responded to all the points. I apologise to hon. Members if they feel
that I have had to go into arcane detail about pipe fittings. I commend
the order to the Committee.
Question put and agreed
to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has
considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of
Functions) (No.2) Order
2006. Committee
rose at twenty-eight minutes past Three
o’clock.
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