Mr.
Hanson: As a Member of Parliament, I am
grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome to the city of Belfast;
I am also grateful for his question. Since the St. Andrews agreement,
there has been tangible progress on the involvement of policing and
recognition that it is a crucial issue. He will know that during the
recent passage the Bill that became the Northern Ireland (St. Andrews
Agreement) Act 2006, we put in place a firm pledge of office that
includes upholding the rule of law based as it is on the fundamental
principles of fairness, impartiality and democratic accountability,
including support for policing and the courts as set out in paragraph 6
of the St. Andrews Agreement. The hon. Gentleman knows that when the
right hon. Member for North Antrim and the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster
(Mr. McGuinness) take their pledge of office as First
Minister and Deputy First Minister, hopefully in March next year, they
will be committing themselves to the provisions of that pledge of
office, in which support for policing is key.
The hon. Member for Belfast,
East also knows that I want Sinn Fein to hold an early conference to
examine the question of policing, and he knows that I want Sinn Fein to
accept not just the principle of policing, but policing on the ground
as he and I would accept it, including reporting crimes and
co-operating and working with the police. Those are key issues, and I
believe that there has been tangible progress on them. It is in part
due to the assistance that we have had from the hon. Gentleman and from
members of Sinn Fein that we have been able to get to this stage. There
is more work to be done, but there has been tangible
progress. Mr.
Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): May I ask the
Minister about the mechanics of the situation? Sinn Fein repeatedly
tells me, including this week, that it will not sign up to
policing—indeed, it will not call an ard fheis to suggest such a
move—until it gets a date for devolution. Under the present
arrangements and legislation, such a date cannot be given, because it
will be the Assembly that decides it. Are we not going round in a
circle? What can the Minister do to break that circle, and can he
stress to Sinn Fein that it should sign up unconditionally to policing,
regardless of anything
else?
Mr.
Hanson: The hon. Gentleman has put his
finger on the nub of the ongoing discussions, of which he, the shadow
Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr.
Lidington), and, indeed, all members of the Committee will be aware. We
are trying to get a commitment from Sinn Fein to take forward the issue
of policing. At the same time, we have an understanding that, at some
point in future, policing may be devolved to the Assembly, when the
Assembly and the parties agree to that. It is a complex matter to get
to that stage.
We need to
resolve the policing issue if we are to get devolution back on 26
March. It is self-evident to all members of the Committee that that is
crucial. We need to continue the discussions that my right hon. Friends
the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister are having on these
matters. I believe we can get there. I am hopeful that Sinn Fein and
the Democratic Unionist party will come to an agreement on how to make
progress on these matters.
Victims Sector
(Funding)9.
Mr.
Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP):
How much has been allocated to fund the victims sector in
Northern Ireland over the next five years.
[105404] The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. David
Hanson): The provision for the victims and survivors
sector for 2007-08 is £5.3 million. Funding for the following
three years has to be considered as part of the current comprehensive
spending review. I expect shortly—in the new year—a
report from the interim commissioner for victims and survivors, which
will have a bearing on funding and the direction of
funding.
Mr.
Donaldson: Surely the funding for victims ought not to be
an issue for the comprehensive spending review. There is an obligation
on the Government to help those who, as the Government acknowledge,
have for a long time not received the help that they deserve. The
victims sector wants some certainty about its future, but it does not
have that at the moment. Mrs. McDougall published an interim
report on funding some months ago, but the Government have not yet
responded to that. Why do they need to wait for her final report before
they do the decent thing and give a clear indication of the funding for
the victims sector for the next five
years?
Mr.
Hanson: There are two parts to that question. Why have we
not responded to the interim report? It is because it is an interim
report, which was put out to consultation for victims groups to comment
on. I am expecting shortly—in the next week or so—a full
report from Bertha McDougall on the funding issues relating to victims,
for publication just after Christmas. I hope that that will inform the
debate about future need and the future direction of
funding. I
would like to put in place a three-year funding package for victims,
but at the moment not a single penny of Northern Ireland expenditure,
either devolved or non-devolved, for 2008 to 2011 has been agreed
because we are in discussions with the Treasury as part of the
comprehensive spending review. When we get final figures for the
three-year period, as we will in summer next year, I would hope to be
able to give certainty of funding over three years. I want to see, not
an annual basis for funding discussions, but a three-year basis, so
that individual organisations can have certainty. I accept the hon.
Gentleman’s point and I believe that we will get shortly to
where he wants to be. St.
John's Residential
Home10.
Mr.
Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): If he
will take steps to ensure that the recommendation of Down Lisburn
Health Trust to close St. John's Residential Home is not implemented.
[105405] The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Maria
Eagle): The proposals put forward by the trust are fully
in line with the reform and modernisation agenda set by the Government,
which is reflected in the Eastern health and social services
board’s strategy for older people’s services.
Older people want to be supported to live independent lives in their own
homes. The policy direction is about developing high-quality safe
services to meet that legitimate aspiration. It would not be right for
me at this stage, therefore, to interfere in what is a properly
constituted consultation process about the future of services for older
people in the Down Lisburn Health and Social Services Trust
area.
Mr.
McGrady: I thank the Minister for her reply. Apparently,
she does not like to interfere in these processes, but I would like to
remind her that it is the duty of Government to ensure, under the
national health legislation, that services are accessible by all their
citizens. St. John’s in Downpatrick is the only statutory bed
provision for old people in the entire district. As we have an ageing
population and a need for provision that gives patients a choice, I
would sincerely like to think that, at the end of the day, the Minister
will exercise the ultimate authority and intervene, and not let the
closure happen as a consequence of cost
saving.
Maria
Eagle: My understanding is that the Down Lisburn trust has
six resource centres for the elderly and that the proposals involve the
closure of two. The centres have been identified by the trust as
suitable for closure due to a decrease in demand for 24-hour
residential care and the resultant excess capacity. I assure the hon.
Gentleman that the £1.8 million of savings likely to accrue will
be reinvested in providing intermediate care services for the elderly
in the area.
PSNI11.
Lady
Hermon (North Down) (UUP): What steps are
being taken to improve training within the Police Service of Northern
Ireland and local councils in the use of antisocial behaviour orders.
[105406] The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. David
Hanson): The Northern Ireland Office community safety unit
has provided training and guidance to those who have the power to apply
for antisocial behaviour orders. In addition, the PSNI has specialist
district trainers who provide training at local level when new
legislation comes into force, and they did so in this
case.
Lady
Hermon: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply.
However, I would like him to address a really serious issue, which is
that only 11 ASBOs have been issued in Northern Ireland in the past two
years. Given that the Northern Ireland Office managed to spend
£30,000 on bottled water during the last financial year but
spent only a fraction of that—a quarter—of that sum on
training on ASBOs for councils and the PSNI, will the Minister tell the
Committee what the increase in the budget will be for training for
ASBOs for councils and the
PSNI?
Mr.
Hanson: I cannot give a figure off-hand for the increase
in the training budget for the PSNI as it is slightly outside my area
of responsibility, but I shall write to the hon. Lady.
We take antisocial behaviour
very seriously. We have created ASBOs and a number of orders are in the
pipeline. There was a glitch because of the recent judicial review,
which checked the hunger of many bodies to use them, but I believe that
that bottleneck is over. The ASBO is a weapon of last resort, but it is
an important means of ensuring that individuals behave properly in the
community and that when they err, they will be given the strong message
of an antisocial behaviour order. I wish to see the orders applied
appropriately and more often. I shall consider the figures given by the
hon. Lady and write to her shortly.
The
Government’s Anti-Poverty and Social Inclusion
Strategy1.32
pm
The
Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I remind
the Committee that the debate may continue until 4 pm. I have had no
indication as to the number of hon. Members who wish to participate.
However, that may become evident, in which case I should be obliged if
contributions were brief so that I can include the largest number of
speakers.
The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. David
Hanson): I beg to move,
That the Committee has
considered the matter of Lifetime Opportunities—the
Government’s Anti-Poverty and Social Inclusion Strategy for
Northern Ireland. I
echo the remarks about the warm welcome that we have had from Belfast
city council and the Mayor for the use of these
facilities.
Mr.
Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Did the
Minister say a “warm”
welcome?
Mr.
Hanson: Far be it from me to increase the cost to the
ratepayers of Belfast by asking for the heating to be turned up; I have
their interests solely at heart on such matters.
Belfast city council has made
the City hall available to us, and I thank the Mayor and his staff for
their welcome, for the luncheon that they offered those hon. Members
who were able to participate and for the use of the facilities
generally.
Rev.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I remind hon. Members
that this building has been a safety net for the people of Northern
Ireland. Their first Parliament met here for the first time. When the
Assembly was thrown out of Stormont, they opened its doors to us; they
even brought the Minister in today, which shows how liberal they are. I
congratulate the city council, and we are delighted that for the first
time in the history of Ireland a Grand Committee has met in Belfast,
and in this
company.
Mr.
Hanson: I would never argue history with the right hon.
Gentleman; I accept all that he says. [ Interruption.] My hon.
Friend the Member for Foyle speaks from a sedentary position; I have
not started my speech but already we have discussion and
dissent.
I return to
the point: I thank Belfast city council for allowing us to use these
facilities. I also thank you,Sir Alan, as Deputy Speaker of
the House of Commons, for your interest in acting as Chairman of the
Committee. It was a commitment for you and for Mr. Speaker
to let you participate in today’s proceedings, for which I am
grateful. I welcome
today’s debate on lifetime opportunities and the
Government’s anti-poverty and social inclusion strategy for
Northern Ireland. I hope that the debate today will gives hon. Members
the opportunity to have a say on some of the issues, and to make
suggestions and comments. It will, undoubtedly, be a political debate.
It is important that I hear genuine comments from hon. Members on the
applicability of the strategy in their constituencies and its general
tone and tenor.
It will be
no surprise that tackling poverty and social exclusion is at the heart
of the Labour Government. That is why we are in business, why we made
an historic commitment to end child poverty by 2020, why we voted for
the minimum wage and put in place child tax credits, and why we put in
place pensioner credits. We have an interest in rebalancing and giving
lifetime opportunities to people, and we put in place the policies to
make a difference on the
ground. Here in
Northern Ireland, we are experiencing a continued period of growth in
employment, falls in unemployment and rises in education, health and
housing. For example, between 2002 and 2005, relative income child
poverty fell from 26 per cent. to 24 per cent. for all children in
Northern Ireland, and 12,000 children have been taken out of poverty in
those two years. In
the labour market, the unemployment rate of4.3 per cent. is
the lowest recorded rate ever recorded in Northern Ireland. As a whole,
the average gross weekly earnings for full-time employees have
increased, not just in money terms but in real
terms. Sammy
Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The Minister indicated that
12,000 children have been taken out of poverty. Does he accept that it
is totally unacceptable that 110,000 children are still deemed to come
from homes that are living in
poverty?
Mr.
Hanson: I am simply describing some of the changes that
have happened as a result of policies that we have put in place since
1997. I am not going to stand here and accept a position in which more
than 100,000 children in Northern Ireland are defined as living in
poverty. That is what the poverty strategy is about, and later in my
speech I shall come to some of the specific measures that we will take
forward. I accept that the hon. Gentleman wants some changes, and so do
we. I simply say that we have made some progress, but that there is
much more work to be done for the
future. For
example—I know that children is a topic that interests the hon.
Gentleman—in 1996, the year before the Labour party came to
power, 17 per cent. of pupils in Northern Ireland did not achieve five
or more GCSEs. That percentage has been reduced dramatically
to14 per cent. On levels of education and skills, in 1992 more
than 37 per cent. of adults of working age had no qualifications
whatever, but the figure is now 26 per cent. of adults of working
age. Over the last 10
years of the Labour Government, life expectancy has increased by three
years for males and by two years for females. The rate of premature
death has fallen by one fifth. Those are real and tangible
improvements. One of
the biggest issues in our success in tackling poverty has been the
impact of housing on the population’s well-being. In 1996,
approximately 6 per cent. of households lived in unfit accommodation
and, by 2001, that figure had halved. The number of children living in
overcrowded conditions has fallen from 14 per cent. at the start of the
Labour Government to 6 per cent. in 2004-05. There is more to be done
and there is work that we and the Assembly must do in due course, but
there is progress to date. There are 112,000 people on pension credit,
205,000 pensioners receive winter fuel payments and action has
been taken on the minimum wage. To make a political point, I remember
staying up all night in 1998 to vote for the minimum wage. Conservative
Members stayed up all night to vote against the minimum wage. Real
improvements have been made by the Government’s actions over the
past 10
years. Mary
Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Will the
Minister share his thoughts about the fact that poverty is a political
issue and that the pernicious and chronic under-investment of 18 years
of Conservative Government were our inheritance and that it will take
at least that long to undo the terrible social and economic
consequences of that
inheritance?
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