The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Martin
Caton
Ainger,
Nick
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)Brennan,
Kevin
(Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's
Treasury)
Bryant,
Chris
(Rhondda)
(Lab)
Clwyd,
Ann
(Cynon Valley)
(Lab)
Crabb,
Mr. Stephen
(Preseli Pembrokeshire)
(Con)
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Caerphilly)
(Lab)
Davies,
Mr. Dai
(Blaenau Gwent)
(Ind)
Davies,
David T.C.
(Monmouth)
(Con)
Flynn,
Paul
(Newport, West)
(Lab)
Francis,
Dr. Hywel
(Aberavon)
(Lab)
Gillan,
Mrs. Cheryl
(Chesham and Amersham)
(Con)
Griffith,
Nia
(Llanelli)
(Lab)
Hain,
Mr. Peter
(Secretary of State for Wales)Hanson,
Mr. David
(Minister of State, Northern Ireland
Office)Havard,
Mr. Dai
(Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
Howells,
Dr. Kim
(Minister for the Middle
East)
Irranca-Davies,
Huw
(Ogmore)
(Lab)
James,
Mrs. Siân C.
(Swansea, East)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Llwyd,
Mr. Elfyn
(Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
(PC)
Lucas,
Ian
(Wrexham)
(Lab)
Michael,
Alun
(Cardiff, South and Penarth)
(Lab/Co-op)
Moon,
Mrs. Madeleine
(Bridgend)
(Lab)
Morden,
Jessica
(Newport, East)
(Lab)
Morgan,
Julie
(Cardiff, North)
(Lab)
Murphy,
Mr. Paul
(Torfaen) (Lab)
Öpik,
Lembit
(Montgomeryshire)
(LD)
Owen,
Albert
(Ynys Môn)
(Lab)
Price,
Adam
(Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr)
(PC)
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd)
(Lab)
Smith,
John
(Vale of Glamorgan)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Touhig,
Mr. Don
(Islwyn)
(Lab/Co-op)
Watkinson,
Angela
(Upminster)
(Con)
Williams,
Mr. Alan
(Swansea, West)
(Lab)
Williams,
Mrs. Betty
(Conwy)
(Lab)
Williams,
Hywel
(Caernarfon)
(PC)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion)
(LD)
Williams,
Mr. Roger
(Brecon and Radnorshire)
(LD)
Willott,
Jenny
(Cardiff, Central)
(LD)
Alan
Sandall, Chris Shaw, Committee
Clerks
attended the Committee
Welsh
Grand
Committee
Wednesday 13
December
2006
(Afternoon)
[Mr.
Martin Caton in the
Chair]
Governments Legislative Programme
Motion
made, and Question proposed [this
day],
That
the Committee has considered the matter of the Governments
Legislative Programme as outlined in the Queens Speech as it
relates to Wales and Public Expenditure in
Wales.[Mr.
Hain.]
2
pm
Question
again proposed.
Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): It is something of a tradition
in Plaid Cymru that, when we respond to the Queens Speech, we
say that there is not a lot in it for Wales. Of course,
there is a great deal in it for Wales because nearly everything in it
applies to Wales, as was said this morning, but I think that we can
safely say this time that there is not anything specific in it for
Wales. That gives us the opportunity to range over several issues that
are relevant to Wales, and I intend to do that this afternoon,
considering specifically the Mental Health Bill, which is a particular
interest of
mine.
Perhaps I should
say briefly that we are disappointed by what was not in the
Queens Speech. We would, for example, have liked some reference
between the Queens Speech and now to the points that I raised
in questions this morning. How will the Secretary of State consider
each application for Orders in Council? There will be an evidence
session next week in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, to which we
look forward, but a question surely remains in everyones mind
about how the veto, if there is to be a veto, will be
operatedperhaps not by this Secretary of State, but a future
one. For a brief moment this morning, I thought of our Secretary of
State, Khrushchev-like on the Front Bench, taking his shoe off and
banging the Dispatch
Box.
Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): My hon. Friend
is showing his
age.
Hywel
Williams: Indeed. I quickly put the image out of my mind,
but there is a real question about the veto. There was also no
reference to the Barnett formula. That is an old one, but a very
important question, although I will not go after it this
afternoon.
There are
regrets, certainly among many of my constituents, that the Government
have again said nothing about the tax credit system, of which I think
all hon. Members have had mixed experiences. I can think of at least
two cases involving my constituents. One woman had 62 letters in one
month, each noting a different amount that was owing. Tragically,
another young woman said that she had had a bill for
£9,500.
She burst into tears, saying that she earned only £8,500 a year.
She was clearly distressed. The Treasury has taken some steps to
improve the system, but much more needs to be
done.
I extend a
guarded welcome to the Pensions Billand the Welfare Reform
Bill. Both have profound implications for Wales and we shall address
those. We shall address them on Second Reading of the Pensions Bill
and, we hope, in Committee. We in Plaid Cymru are very much in favour
of a citizens pension, which would be set at a liveable level
and financed by rolling other payments together. I was disappointed
that the other day the Chancellor of the Exchequer again made no
mention of the tax relief given to higher rate taxpayers, which
amounts, according to conservative estimates, to about £12
billion. We are in favour of redeploying that away from higher rate
taxpayers to the generality of pensioners, so that that pot of money
can be shared.
There
are high levels of long-term sickness and disability in Wales. I think
that all hon. Members have experience to varying degrees of
constituents in those circumstances. Obviously, employment is a way out
of low incomes and the poverty in which some people with a long-term
illness or disability live. However, if the Governments
measures are to be applied evenly across Wales, they will hit some
constituencies harder, because of long-term sickness and disability. I
am thinking of valley seats, where there are high levels of sickness
and disability and fewer jobs. Unemployment has come down, but
sanctioning people by telling them to return to work when perhaps work
is not so easy to find strikes me as inequitable. We must consider in
detail how the proposals will
work.
I will refer
briefly to a couple of other Bills, starting with the forthcoming child
support Bill. Most hon. Members would agree that there has been
long-term dissatisfaction with the Child Support Agency. Many of my
constituents have had bad experiences with it; they have not got their
money, and fathers have not been pursued. There has been constant
background suspicion that the CSA was going for the easy
casesthe low-hanging fruitand pursuing fathers who were
co-operating to some extent with the system, not those who had
disappeared.
I shall
take this opportunity to praise the individual workers in the CSA, who
have done a marvellous job in the circumstances. I would particularly
like to mention the Welsh language line, which is based in Birkenhead
and has been useful to me and many of my
constituents.
Mr.
Llwyd: My hon. Friend knows that a statement was
made today on this subject. Much of what wassaid was welcome,
for example, that the private arrangements between mother and father
can now become the set agreement for the CSA. I am sure that my
experience is common to many in the Room, and I am concerned that the
self-employed are getting away with it. I wonder whether they will
still get away with it, because the only change is that they will have
to deliver their Inland Revenue accounts. Everybody knows that the less
scrupulous self-employed person creams off a lot of money before the
accounts go in, so I wonder whether we need to be a bit more robust.
That discussion is probably for another
day.
Hywel
Williams: That is a pertinent point. Women have told me,
as they have told other hon. Members, My ex-husband is driving
around in the new 4x4 vehicle, has a nice house and is paying me
nothing. That experience is common, so the new arrangements
will have to be kept under close
scrutiny.
I want to
refer briefly to the Offender Management Bill. Hon. Members know that
the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs is examining prisons and the
experiences of Welsh prisoners. We held an interesting evidence session
last week, when the head of the north Wales probation service told us
that problems are already appearing with the end-to-end
managementof prisoners. Someone convicted in the courts in
Caernarfon might be held at Altcourse, which is the other side of
Liverpool, and the probation officer from Caernarfon would then be
responsible, end-to-end, for the management of that person. One case
might take him an entire day because of travelling to Altcourse for a
meeting. I hope that the Home Office rural proofs these
issuesthat is the fashionable termbecause the geography
and road system in Wales mean that there are real problems about how
the Bill will be implemented if it is enacted.
I have an interest in the
Mental Health Bill, although not a formal one, in that I used to be an
approved social worker. At one time, David Hinchliffe, who was a
distinguished Chair of the Select Committee on Health, and I were the
only two former ASWs in the House. We would sometimes catch each
others eye across the Chamber when a fatuous remark was made.
My beady eye would occasionally fall on some hon. Members.
I was pleased to sit on the
Joint Committee on the Draft Mental Health Bill two winters ago. As
hon. Members will know, it largely rejected the draft Bill. There are
many difficulties with the new Bill as well. I emphasise that I am in
favour of compulsion. Some people think that the whole system can be
managed with little compulsion, but I am in favour of it. Having
sectioned people, I know the intense distress that people experience
when they are in psychotic states. At that point, they have to be
compelled. This is not a Second Reading debate, so I will not discuss
that point in detail.
I want to examine some
particular Welsh issues. It has been suggested that we might have had a
Welsh mental health Act. Scotland has its own legislation and
arrangements, and the evidence that we heard in the Joint Committee
suggested that they work well. They are not dissimilar to the
arrangements in England and Wales, but they are tailored to the
Scottish situation. One difference is that the Scottish legislation
contains a statement of principlesa straightforward statement
of how the Act will be implemented for people with a mental illness.
That is understandable and symbolically useful, as are statements on
treating people fairly and without discrimination.
A proposition on such
statements was put to the Minister of State, Department of Health, the
right hon. Member for Doncaster, Central (Ms Winterton) during
consideration of the draft Bill by the Joint Committee. The
Ministers response was revealing; after not answering the
question several times, she said that we could not have a statement of
principles on the face of the Bill because principles might change.
That is
an interesting understanding of the word principles. So
we might want a statement of principles if we had a Welsh mental health
Bill.
Health is now a
devolved issue and around 95 per cent. of health matters are handled in
Cardiff so there is a good case for Welsh mental health legislation.
The NHS has diverged and there are clearly now at least four national
health services in the UK, as shown by some of the academic research.
England has gone its own way and one need only mention the private
finance initiative. There is a good case for a mental health Bill for
Wales as we have our own unique NHS and it is therefore disappointing
that the Bill as it stands does not provide for framework powers to be
passed to the Assembly so that it can legislate.
Resources are a particular
problem in Wales and some hon. Members know that, when the Joint
Committee looked at the mental health system in Wales, it was judged,
on the basis of the evidence, that the framework employed in Wales was
at least four years behind England. That has a lot to do with spending,
and health remains the Cinderella of the health service in England and
in Wales. We need to tailor the law to fit the
circumstances.
I have
doubts about the Governments proposals for supervised community
treatment orders following detention in hospital as they would make it
compulsory for people to be treated in the community. As the orders
follow detention, they would have to be clearly defined and be mainly
for treatment. One of the problems is that they may be employed as a
means of keeping a patient on a leash: people are out under a
compulsory order for treatment, but might be sent back if things do not
turn out well.
The
other problem is entirely practical. It has been suggested that people
on such orders might attend day centres where they would be seen for
perhaps eight hours a day. They may also be compelled to attend day
centres. That is one thing in the middle of Birmingham or London, but
it is entirely different in Powys, Caernarfon or for someone living at
the far end of the Llyn peninsula in my constituency, whose day centre
is in Bangor. That is not a reasonable
proposition.
The
question is whether to have a law that is fair in principle, but in
some ways unfair in application. If we consider the Mental Health Act
1959, which preceded the 1983 Act, we appreciate that it is undesirable
for people to be sectioned under emergency powers. The proportion of
emergency sections compared with the more considered 28-day sections in
England was 25:75. Most people received the services of a psychiatrist
before being sectioned. The situation in Wales was exactly the reverse:
75 per cent. of people were sectioned merely by a social worker or
their nearest relative and a family doctor, who did not always have
great expertise in psychiatry. Since the Mental Health Act 1983, things
have improved markedly. However, there is still a problem in rural
Wales and I would have liked the Bill to address the problems of
rurality. They are not peculiar to Wales yet the Bill is based on an
urban
model.
As
I have said, we need to secure equity of treatment throughout Wales and
to ensure that the professional roles of people in the NHS are clearly
defined. The Bill suggests that the role of applicantsthe
social workers rolemight be taken by other
professionals
such as psychologists, psychiatrists and so on. Thereis a
danger, especially in small hospitals that psychologists will put in a
difficult positionI will not say professional
collusionif they are required to apply for a section and then
have to work with a psychiatrist, who might attach a certain condition.
In such cases, how would they say no? I had to say no a number of times
when I was sectioning people, which is difficult. Such concerns might
be particularly relevant in Wales, where there is some anxiety about
who would be the clinical supervisor, although I will not go into that
now.
The 1983 Act
states that the sectioning applicantthe social
workershould communicate in a reasonable manner with the person
who is being sectioned. In parts of Wales, that has been interpreted as
conferring certain language rights on the patient, so that if the
patient wants to be sectioned in Welsh that should be facilitated, if
possible. My English is good enough, but if I were sectioned, I would
like to be sectioned in Welsh. It is a serious point in Wales, given
our language. The Bill contains nothing about communication in respect
of that role. As it amends the 1983 Act perhaps that is not important,
but it is an issue for
Wales.
There is a case
to be made for a Welsh mental health Bill, but this is not it. However,
the fundamentals will not change and eventually, as a Welsh health
service develops, we will need more legislation that is properly
tailored to the Welsh situation.
2.17
pm
Dr.
Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): I should first like to
draw the Committees attention to my entry in the Register of
Members Interests, especially in relation to the Bevan
Foundation and the fact that I am a vice-president of Carers
UK.
We come to the
debate recognising that Wales faces many global challenges. The most
immediate for us are the twin challenges of climate change and
education, both of which are addressed in the Queens Speech.
How we tackle these challenges will determine whether we prosper or
decline. I suggest that we should characterise our approach as
embracing a global Wales rather than a fortress Wales strategy. It is
to the credit of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which I have the
privilege of chairing, that we subscribe very firmly to a global Wales
strategy. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for
Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) for initiating that expansive
outward-looking, visionary approach.
The Committees first
major report of this Parliament was on energy in Wales. I believe that
our report was balanced and challenging and that it anticipated much of
the Stern report on climate change. Indeed, it highlighted the
potential of the diversity of renewable energy resources in Wales and
commended the pioneering work of the centre for alternative technology
in Machynlleth.
The
Queens Speech and the pre-Budget report are moving towards
recognising the twin challenges of climate change and education and
skills. For that reason, I warmly welcome and commend the
Governments approach to these matters. I intend to concentrate
on the other global challenge for Wales, education and skills, which
are highlighted in the Leitch report. That challenge will form a key
element in the Welsh Affairs Committees forthcoming major
inquiry on globalisation and its impact on Wales. We will begin that
inquiry next month by examining employment and the crucial skills that
will be required to ensure that employment prospects in Wales are good.
The visionary yet realistic approach of the Labour Government
parallels, maybe even follows, the global approach of the Welsh Affairs
Committee.
It has
become a truism to say that we should all think global and act local.
The Chancellor certainly believes that, which was why he said last week
in his pre-Budget
report:
Economies
like ours have no choice but to out-innovate and out-perform
competitors by the excellence of our science and education, the quality
of infrastructure and environment, the flexibility of our economy, and
our levels of creativity and
entrepreneurship.[Official Report, 6 December
2006; Vol. 454, c. 306.]
He
also
emphasised:
The
single most important investment that we can makeis in
education.[Official Report, 6 December 2006;
Vol. 454,c. 313.]
All the imperatives reaffirm
the critical need for greater lifelong learning opportunities. The
voice of British higher education, Universities UK, recently identified
the countrys long-term economic challenges as productivity, an
ageing work force and global competitiveness. It recognised that the
ageing work force needs personalised, flexible part-time study and
increased continuing professional
development.
I was
recently struck by the similarities in the approach to education policy
between Wales and South Africa. I had the privilege of meeting Theuns
Eloff, the vice-chancellor of the new North-West university in South
Africa, who was a key player in the peaceful transition of his country
from apartheid to democracy. The university is based on four campuses,
has 40,000 students and is dedicated to the same values that we embrace
in Walesregeneration, widening access and
equality.
However, do
we in Wales and the UK recognise in the new global economy in which 4
million Chinese people graduate every year that, in the words of the
Leitch
report,
A
radical step-change is
necessary?
The Welsh
Assembly Government certainly have the vision. Their document
The Learning Country 2: Delivering The Promise, throws
down a challenge to all Welsh higher education institutions, stating
that
HEIs will be
expected to put in place strong outreach activities to widen access.
The focus once again should be on the 20 per cent. who are the most
disadvantaged and hence the least likely to attend higher
education.
The
Welsh Assembly Government, along with leading educationalists such as
Professor David Reynolds, recognise that, for historical reasons, Wales
has generally lagged behind England in all-round educational
performance. It is specifically recognised that further education is a
Cinderella sector, that work-based learning could and should be far
better developed and that there is still a proportionately lower spend
on higher education than in England, largely
from the days of the LG factor. It is important to
know whether the Chancellors good news on capital budgets for
schools and colleges will be translated to Wales in real terms, and I
look forward to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretarys comments on
that.
Recognising
everything that I have mentioned is commendable, but the Welsh Assembly
Government know that Wales needs a major step change, as envisaged in
the Leitch report, which states
that
where skills were
once a key driver of prosperity and fairness, they are now
the key driver. Achieving world class skills is the key
to achieving economic success and social justice in the new global
economy.
Mr.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I thank the
hon. Gentleman for giving way, and we all appreciate the contribution
that he has made to education and higher education. Does he share my
concern that there are few people in the permanent inspection teams in
the Welsh education inspections set-up who are trained in or who have
taught science? Does he have concerns about that part of the process of
improving education in Wales?