Mrs.
Gillan: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that setting
targets as such is possibly not the way to go in absolute terms? Our
proposal to set rolling targets and framework targets over a period is
perhaps a better and alternative way of considering the issue. Will he
support our calls to have the proposed rolling targets set and
monitored by an independent body? That would give confidence to the
public, as well as to the interns to whom he refers, but it is not
present in the Bill. Perhaps I can seek his support, on a cross-party
basis, for our proposals to improve the
Bill.
Alun
Michael: It is always interesting to hear from travellers
on the road to Damascus who have taken no interest in such issues in
the past. That is an indication of the extent to which we have won the
argument, and of the way in which the climate change agenda, which has
been promoted internationally by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor,
is having an effect, even in the depths of the Conservative party,
which is a good thing. Consensus, led by the Labour party, is the right
way forward for the
country. On the hon.
Lady’s point, what is important is that the targets are
meaningful, that the measurements are meaningful and not based on minor
fluctuations and that the direction of travel is sustainable for the
long term. I have absolute confidence that, in developing the way in
which those policies are to be implemented,my right hon.
Friend, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
will challenge himself and
others. The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire also referred to post offices. Very
small communities, in which, as he has acknowledged, the Government
have maintained post offices by pumping in extra money, have to be
sustainable in different ways. It is necessary in some cases to assist
communities to take ownership of the facilities, so that those
facilities can be run as a social enterprise. I have seen some good
examples in different parts of the country of shops or post offices
that were unsustainable as commercial ventures retaining the community
benefit, to which the hon. Gentleman has rightly referred, thanks to
the engagement of the community. Those facilities were made sustainable
by being linked to other things.
Organisations such as the
Churches have looked at the use of buildings that can otherwise be very
expensive in small villages in order to make them sustainable. The
hub-and-spoke idea of using mobile facilities is a way of ensuring that
they are provided for the long term. However, we must face the fact
that it is very expensive to provide these services in every rural
community, and a more intelligent and engaged approach to solving the
problem and meeting the challenges is
essential.
Mr.
Roger Williams: The right hon. Gentleman has a great
knowledge of rural areas and rural issues. His point about using post
offices or ensuring that post office services are delivered in a
different way is well made, and people are prepared to engage in that
respect. In my constituency and in Ceredigion, post offices act as a
contact point for the police, bringing a bigger police presence to the
village and retaining the post
office.
Alun
Michael: That is quite right. My point is that the issue
needs to be considered from a community perspective. We must ask what
facilities we need and how we can make them sustainable for the long
term, rather than just saying, “Oh Government, please pour more
money into providing them.” I acknowledge that the hon.
Gentleman’s comments fit with what I am
saying. It is a
pleasure today to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli. As a
Member of the National Assembly for Wales, I developed a great
affection for
Llanelli when it was in my constituency—large portions of Wales
were in my constituency at that time. A few weeks ago, I shared an
evening with my hon. Friend and the Co-operative party in Llanelli to
celebrate the contribution that individuals have made over a long
period of time. My
hon. Friend spoke strongly on the issue of global warming and I urge
hon. Members in Wales to engage with the co-operative approach in which
the community takes responsibility for what it can contribute. I
represent Wales on the national executive of the Co-operative party,
which is arguing for developing the concept of the carbon-neutral
community. The RSA has proposed some exciting ideas on personal carbon
trading, which are currently being piloted.
My right hon. Friend the
Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs spoke the
other day about the idea of a carbon card, which fits well with those
practical approaches, considering not only the global dimension but
asking, “What can I do about it?” On those matters, and
on fair trade, making the link between the international dimension, our
responsibilities and what we can do as individuals will lead to a
positive response to the need to engage with these major political
issues. It is also a
pleasure to speak after my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon, with
whom I share an interest in South Africa. I was grateful for his
insight into the links between higher and further education and the
community, on which he is such an expert.
I was interested, too, in the
thoughtful remarks of the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams)
about compulsory medication and other issues. Over the years, I have
seen lives ruined because of people’s failure to take prescribed
drugs, which leads to the loss of the individual’s quality of
life and, in some circumstances, to their loss of freedom, because a
disaster happens as a result of their failure to take that medication,
which can also damage the lives of people around them. Compulsion can
be in the interests of the patient and the community. The points that
the hon. Gentleman made are extremely relevant as the devil is in the
detail. The challenge is to get the balance right, ensuring that the
power is not abused, but that it is used in circumstances in which an
early enough intervention would protect the interests of the patient
and be
welcomed. Much
has been said already about the interface between the National Assembly
for Wales and Parliament. Devolution creates a situation in which we
can do more together than we can alone. That is certainly true at
constituency level, where I find the overlap in working and taking
initiatives with our Assembly Member, Lorraine Barrett, to be of great
benefit. However, it is of far more importance to our constituents and
to the community. She is deeply rooted in the local community, and that
helps us both in our work.
I am pleased to see many
examples of the National Assembly maturing as an organisation. The work
in some Committees is of an increasingly high standard, and we have
seen the benefit of work to improve the lives of children and of older
people. However, it is disappointing that the Opposition have not yet
matured in the same way. The obstruction of the
budget is irresponsible. I remember during the
Assembly’s first year, the then hon. Member for Caernarfon
saying that it was important that the Administration had their budget,
and that it must be scrutinised and challenged. But, he said, to
obstruct the workings of the Assembly and its Government was
irresponsible. It is
a pity that the Opposition parties have largely been silent on the
Government’s winning a further six years for objective 1
finance—I am sorry that I use the old terminology; I can never
remember the new terminology. I was pleased to be engaged, along with
Andrew Davies and Rhodri Morgan in achieving that success during my
time at the Department for Trade and Industry. I worked closely with
them to realise that outcome, which depended on something that has
rarely been acknowledged: the expertise of the Prime Minister in
achieving a budget for Europe during the UK’s
presidency.
Mrs.
Gillan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Alun
Michael: Yes. It is always a pleasure to give way to the
hon. Lady, because it usually gives me an opportunity for a
riposte.
Mrs.
Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman needs every opportunity
he can get. May I put
right something that the right hon. Gentleman said, which is wrong? The
leader of the Welsh Conservatives said that constructive dialogue is
the only way forward to ensure that Opposition priorities are addressed
in the final budget settlement. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks for
one minute that talking about budgets for schools, tir mynydd, closing
the higher education funding gap and increasing the budget for
transport grants and the ambulance service should be dismissed lightly
as a political stunt, he misleads the Committee and the people of
Wales. The Welsh
Conservatives have used what is available to negotiate the budget, and
they carry out theirduties properly and in the interests of
the people of Wales—unlike the Labour party and Rhodri Morgan.
They appear unable to listen, and are able to do deals with Opposition
parties only when it suits them.
Alun
Michael: That is a pretty desperate attemptto
defend the Welsh Conservatives. It is a suicide attempt, really. If the
Welsh Conservatives engaged in constructive dialogue, it would be a
Damascene change. Let us see whether they put their votes where their
mouth is. It is easy to come out with such rhetoric, but we have seen
the Conservatives, with the nationalists and the Liberal Democrats,
rush into the Lobby when the chips are down, because antagonism is
their normal attitude. During the early days of the Assembly, the
Conservative approach stopped the consensual approach that, as a
reflection of people’s desire for a new politics, we wanted to
use to advance the Assembly. Perhaps the hon. Lady was not paying
attention to Welsh politics at that time.
I shall focus on the way in
which the Assembly deals with new legislative powers. I hope that, now
new legislation is in place, Assembly officials will sharpen
their act on secondary legislation. Local authoritiesin Wales
and elsewhere have been awaiting with anticipation the powers under the
Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005, and there was
frustration that its implementation fell seriously behind the timetable
in England. That is a pity because the Act puts the responsibility for
tackling local environmental issues—fly-tipping, fly-posting,
litter and the closure of alleys where there are problems—in the
context of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The chief executive of each
local authority and each local police commander share responsibility
for making the crime and disorder partnership work in their areas, but
other partners have responsibilities too. The National Assembly for
Wales is a designated body, under the Act, so it should have
implemented the provisions
faster. National
health service bodies have responsibilities too, which can work to its
benefit, if crime reduction is pursued vigorously. For example, an
initiative was undertaken by Professor John Shepherd of Cardiff
university, who, being responsible for the accident and emergency unit,
got rather fed up with having to put faces back together after violent
experiences. He put together a partnership to analyse the nature of the
violent offences that resulted in people being taken to
Cardiff’s accident and emergency unit. That analysis involved a
police presence, victim support and greater reporting of offences. It
identified examples of domestic violence, as well as locations and
licensed premises in which a disproportionate number of offences took
place and where the analysis suggested that the repetition of crime
could be prevented. Certainly, that resulted in some hot spots in
Cardiff being dealt with and a reduction in violent
crime. I recall that
some years ago, when I had such responsibilities, I wrote to every NHS
trust in Wales suggesting that they get together with the local police
and learn lessons in order to benefit potential victims and the NHS,
which has to provide very expensive treatment to victims of violence. I
do not get the impression that those benefits have been pursued and
squeezed out in every part of Wales. Proper analyses of crime can
reduce repeat violence on licensed premises, as well as domestic
violence, and that would result in fewer victims and remove some
pressures on policing and NHS budgets allowing them to focus on the
priorities of the local community. That analysis is important. Local
authorities, the Assembly, police and other partners should be engaged
in identifying and tackling crime and disorder.
I welcome the leadership from
the police in Cardiff—there is a can-do approach and a real
attempt to deal with local issues—but the quality of the
information on which we are operating is still far poorer than it
should be in the age of the computer and the internet. Again, I am
happy that the senior team in Cardiff wants to improve that situation
and has responded positively to some of my suggestions. However, the
situation is not satisfactory. Some30 years have passed since
the Devon and Cornwall police force showed the potential of its
analysis of crime in the centre of Exeter, some 25 years since a local
analysis in Cardiff and 10 years since some very powerful systems were
devised in places such as the university of Salford.
Analyses
provide less useful information now than when the current assistant
chief constable, David Francis, as a young superintendent, provided us
with a personal analysis using the Amstrad on the corner of his desk. I
hope for better analyses, especially since the 101 centre in Cardiff
put together officials from local authorities and the police and
provided a proper analysis of the issues. That can be linked to proper
intervention and the use of antisocial behaviour orders, which are
sometimes successful, but not always developed crisply enough. However,
we need greater concentration and a focus on joint action to protect
citizens so it is important that local and central Government and the
Welsh Assembly work together. I hope that my right hon. Friend the
Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister will act as a bridge
between the Home Office, the Welsh Assembly and those organisations to
make the situation better in
Wales.
Mr.
Llwyd: On a point of order, Mr. Caton. I notice
that the Secretary of State, with respect to him, has been able to
extricate himself from the main Chamber, but the hon. Member for
Montgomeryshire is not in his
place.
The
Chairman: That is not a point of
order.
3.30
pm Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): This has been an
interesting and varied debate, which opened with a speech by the
Secretary of State that was, in its own way, strangely comforting. That
was perhaps owing to its familiarity, since it was almost word for word
the same speech that he delivered last month to the Welsh Assembly.
However, it would be unfair to be over-critical of the Secretary of
State for the cut-and-paste approach to his speech. After all, he has
many other matters on his mind at the moment. He is, of course, double
hatted: also being Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and he
appears very pleased with his performance over there. Indeed, so
pleased that he recently announced to BBC Ulster that the financial
deal that he had achieved to facilitate the establishment of the new
Northern Ireland Executive would leave the people of Wales green with
envy. Again this morning, he told the Committee about the wonderful
initiative that he had brought forward in Northern Ireland to support
renewable energy. We look forward to a similar initiative in
Wales. We have also
heard today that the Secretary of State will be spending Christmas at
Hillsborough castle rather than in Neath, so clearly he has a great
affinity with Northern Ireland. He is also harbouring his own deputy
leadership
ambitions.
The
Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter
Hain): I am enjoying every second of this, but as my right
hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen can confirm, it has long been a
tradition for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to spend
Christmas in Northern Ireland on duty.
Mr.
Jones: I fully understand that, and no doubt the Secretary
of State will be spending new year in Wales. He obviously has his
deputy leadership ambitions, too, which are well known. He told us this
morning about
his 4-tonne Jaguar, and he is no doubt aiming for an 8-tonner. When he
comes before us today with his re-treaded speech, we should understand
that he has other things on his
mind. The Secretary of
State was of course suitably laudatory of the Labour Government. That
will be the reason why he will probably be departing Wales and taking
up the deputy prime ministerial position. No matter how badly the
Government perform, there is the Secretary of State to bang the drum
and belt out what a fine job they are doing.
What was telling in the
Secretary of State’s speech was his concern about the challenge
posed to Labour by the Conservative party in Wales. It was he who told
colleagues that the Labour party would be in a bare-knuckle fight with
the Tories and it is he who has expressed concerns about a Tory-led
coalition. No doubt it is also he who has encouraged his colleague the
First Minister of Wales to do his cosy deal withthe
self-proclaimed only real socialists in Wales, the separatists in Plaid
Cymru. They are strange bedfellows indeed.
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