Mrs.
Gillan: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the rumours now
emanating from Cardiff bay are strong, in that a deal has been done on
the budget between Plaid and Labour, selling out the educational system
in Wales and settling for sums far less than those for which the Welsh
Conservatives would have settled? It is only the Welsh Conservatives
who have held out for their principles and the people of Wales in the
budget negotiations. Plaid and Labour are traitors to the people of
Wales.
Mr.
Jones: Indeed, but to be fair to Plaid Cymru and Labour, I
understand that they managed to wring the staggering sum of
£300,000 out of the First Minister, so they obviously think that
they have done
well. Other
contributions to the debate were less predictable and in many respects
much more thoughtful than the off-the-shelf job that the Secretary of
State regaled us with. The right hon. Member for Torfaen made a
characteristically thoughtful and unpartisan contribution to the
debate. He agreed with the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for
Chesham and Amersham laid out in her opening speech about scrutiny of
the proposed Orders in Council under the Government of Wales Act
2006. The Secretary
of State has said that the Welsh Affairs Committee will have a role in
pre-legislative scrutiny, but the right hon. Member for Torfaen clearly
shares our view that what is required is rigorous scrutiny on the Floor
of both Houses of Parliament. We await the unveiling of the proposals
next week with baited breath, but without much optimism; what we are
likely to get is 90 minutes in Committee, which is unacceptable. The
right hon. Gentleman said that this Parliament must not rubber stamp
requests for Orders in Council from the Assembly, but unfortunately
that is what the likely level of scrutiny will probably
produce. The big
difference between the process proposed and rubber stamping is that the
Secretary of State himself will be gatekeeper to the legislation; no
measure can be brought forward unless the Secretary of State decrees
it. The people of Wales will wait in anticipation for the
extension of the vice-regal fist to see whether the thumb is extended
upwards or downwards, becausethe truth is that the Act will
concentrate power in the hands of the Secretary of State on an
unprecedented basis. The right hon. Member for
Torfaen echoed the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the
Memberfor Preseli Pembrokeshire about the proposed
rationalisation of HM Revenue and Customs offices in Wales, a concern
shared by many members of the
Committee. Chris
Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): How many cuts would there be
under the hon. Gentleman?
Mr.
Jones: The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd has spent most of
today’s Committee being a cheeky, chappie, jack-the-lad. Does he
want to intervene? I
am sure his boss will give him the necessary
licence.
Mr.
Hain: Very entertaining he is,
too.
Mr.
Jones: The hon. Gentleman certainly thinks he is
entertaining, but very few other members of the Committee do. Would he
like to
intervene?
Chris
Ruane: I just have.
Mr.
Jones: Under the proposals, large areas of north and west
Wales would be left without a face-to-face service from HM Revenue and
Customs. That cannot be right. Great concern has already been expressed
to me and, no doubt, to many other members of the Committee by staff of
HMRC, their customers and the accountancy
profession. As my hon.
Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham noted, the Government are
not bringing forward precise proposals for Wales until June, after the
Assembly elections. They no doubt hope to minimise the electoral damage
by putting back the process, but I assure the Secretary of State that
the concern already exists and if nothing is done to allay it, it will
be a factor at the next Assembly
elections. The hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire, who is still not in his place, made a
wide-ranging, not to say meandering, speech touching on many issues
arising from and outside the Queen’s Speech, and I echo the
remarks made by the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. The hon. Member
for Montgomeryshire criticised no fewer than three members of this
Committee for being absent. He criticised the absence of my hon. Friend
the Member for Chesham and Amersham in rather sneering terms. I want to
put it on the record that my hon. Friend has only recently returned to
Parliament after a serious and life-threatening operation. I hope that
the hon. Gentleman’s hon. Friends will convey to him that I
consider his remarks to have been churlish in the extreme.
On terrorism, the hon. Member
for Montgomeryshire criticised the Government’s proposals on the
basis that “you do not defeat
terrorism by oppressing terrorists”. I should have thought that
oppressing terrorists was rather a good idea. However, we need a far
more joined-up approach to the war on terrorism than that which is
offered by a Home Office which, on the admission of the Home Secretary,
is dysfunctional and unfit for purpose. The Conservative party has for
some time been calling for the creation of a department of homeland
security dedicated to co-ordinating the fight against terrorism. From
news reports today it appears that the Government may at long last be
inching towards accepting our recommendation. I hope that they do so,
and quickly. The hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire questioned the Conservative commitment to
devolution, quoting Hansard extracts from the speech made by my
hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth. However, the hon. Gentleman
refused twice to answer me when I intervened to ask why the Liberal
Democrats opposed Conservative proposals to offer the people of Wales a
referendum on part 2 powers before they were implemented. His refusal
to answer makes it clear that the Liberal Democrats are willing and
eager partners in the gerrymandered arrangements that will result in
the Secretary of State having the power of life or death over Assembly
measures. The Conservative party presses for a referendum for the
people of Wales, so that they can decide for themselves whether they
want primary legislative powers. That would have been the principled
thing for any Government to do. As the situation stands, nobody knows
whether the people of Wales want primary
powers. The hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire touched on post office closures, but got
himself into something of a knot about whether his party wanted to
privatise the Post
Office. The hon.
Member for Ynys Môn made a thoughtful speech. He welcomes the
proposal to restore the link between pensions and average earnings, as
do the Conservatives. Despite the fact that a Conservative Government
broke the link, he will recall that restoring it was an important plank
of Conservative policy at the last general
election.
Chris
Ruane: But not in 1992 or
1997.
Mr.
Jones: The hon. Gentleman is at it
again. The hon. Member
for Ynys Môn was much shakier, however, on the Chancellor of the
Exchequer’s raid on pension funds, which has caused so much
damageto pensioners. The hon. Gentleman welcomes the
forthcoming climate change Bill, as does the Conservative party.
Indeed, we pressed for it. However, he shares our concern at the lack
of binding targets. He acknowledged the failure of the Child Support
Agency and I would echo his comments that early attention to the child
support system is a
priority. The hon.
Member for Caernarfon made an interesting and thoughtful contribution,
in which he spoke from his great personal knowledge of the need for a
mental health Bill. He expressed concern that the Queen’s Speech
made no mention of any proposal to address the problems of the tax
credit system. The iniquities of that system have caused considerable
concern and distress to many of our constituents. He
mentioned the Pensions Bill and, in particular, a
Plaid Cymru policy of removing tax relief for higher rate taxpayers. I
personally would not welcome that and I am sorry that he mentioned it,
because it might put ideas into the Government’s
head. The hon. Member
for Aberavon, the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee—it is
a great privilege to serve under his chairmanship—delivered a
thoughtful speech, addressing concerns about a globalised economy and
its effect on Wales. He is right: we must recognise the threats and
challenges posed by globalisation and by climate change. He spoke of
the need to facilitate lifelong learning opportunities and pointed out
that Wales has for some time lagged behind England in the area of
education and needs to address the problem. I am sure that hon. Members
will have appreciated and learned from his thoughtful
speech. The hon.
Member for Ceredigion spoke of the digital switchover and pointed out
the problems that rural communities might face. He is right. Residents
of my own constituency, which is highly rural, have expressed similar
concerns. He spoke of budgetary shortfalls in relation to community
policing and of the need for a marine Bill. Again, the Conservative
party would echo that point. He spoke of his concerns about the threat
to post offices and the vital role that they play in a rural community.
Again, that is a theme that is developing from this Committee, and I
hope that the Government learn from
it. The hon. Member
for Llanelli spoke of constituency concerns and once again addressed
the problems facing HM Revenue and Customs. She also spoke of the
climate change Bill and the need to address best practice.
The hon. Member for Brecon and
Radnorshire spoke of the Offender Management Bill and his concerns
about the probation service. He also spoke of the problems facing
British Waterways.
The right hon. Member for
Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael) made a wide-ranging and
possibly less meandering speech than the hon. Member for
Montgomeryshire. He raised concerns about rural policing and climate
change. This has been
a long, but interesting debate. At the end of the day, we see a
Government who are tiredand have delivered a tired
Queen’s Speech. In almost10 years in Parliament and
almost eight years in Cardiff Bay they have created a Wales that is the
poorest region of the UK. NHS dentistry has become a thing of the past
and council tax is double its level in 1997. The Secretary of State may
attempt to talk upthe position, but the truth is that Labour
has letdown Wales. Labour means well, but does not deliver.
Wales deserves better and needs a new team. Onlythe Welsh
Conservatives can provide the leadership that Wales
needs. 3.46
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Nick
Ainger): As the hon. Member for Clwyd, West
(Mr. Jones) said, it has been an interesting and
wide-ranging debate. I am not sure whether some of the issues raised
were relevant to the title of the debate and it is interesting that the
Opposition made no reference whatsoever to the pre-Budget report, which
relates to it. I wonder why that is. Presumably, it is
because it was an excellent report, building on what
we have achieved over the past nine or 10 years and aiming to ensure
that stability, low inflation and investment go into our public
services in the coming
years. Mr.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The
Under-Secretary described the pre-Budget report as excellent. Is he
aware that the Institute for Fiscal Studies criticised the Government
for their distorted use of statistics? There are repeated
announcements, but they do not amount to new money—they are just
re-announcements of old money from 12 months previously, or sometimes
longer than that.
Nick
Ainger: I have seen the media coverage of that criticism,
but I have not seen the details. There is nothing wrong in telling an
accurate and truthful story about the state of our economy compared
with what it was when the hon. Gentleman’s party was in
power. The
Queen’s Speech, unlike what the hon. Member for Clwyd, West,
said, is ambitious and bold. It outlines a programme for the Government
that will build on our successes, create opportunities, enhance our
security, and take tough decisions in the interests of this
country’s long-term future. I reject the claim by the hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire, who is still not here, that it is a
conservative legislative programme. The Queen’s Speech includes
measures to tackle climate change, reform pensions by linking them to
earnings, drive up the quality of further education, strengthen and
give greater freedoms to local government, and take tough action to
tackle antisocial behaviour and organised
crime. Similarly, the
measures in the pre-Budget report build on a platform of stability and
sustained growth and will provide investment in Britain’s
potential so that a strong economy and a fair society can be secured.
Other measures include: more investment in education; more resources to
enforce the minimum wage; extra help for lone parents and young people
to get back into work; the provision of child benefit to mothers-to-be;
and action to tackle climate
change. Through the
Queen’s Speech and the pre-Budget report, Labour is building a
long-term future for Wales and Britain. I look forward to working with
my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and a Labour
Welsh Assembly Government to implement the proposals we have discussed
together to build a prosperous Wales and ensure opportunity for
all. I am sure hon.
Members will appreciate that I may not be able to cover every point
that has been made, but certain themes have been raised. I want to
reinforce the message given by my right hon. Friend about the extra
resources coming to Wales through the pre-Budget report. There will be
£9 million in resources in the coming year and a further
£165 million in capital over the next three years. That is
significant extra money and it builds on the budget for Wales, which
the Government have doubled since 1999. It has given the Assembly the
opportunity to invest in more teachers, doctors and nurses, and it
builds on the 10 years of sustained growth in the economy in Wales. A
record number of people are in work. The figure is 1.3 million, which
is a rise of almost 130,000 since 1997.
My right hon. Friend the Member
for Torfaen referred to the reduction in unemployment that has taken
place in his constituency and in the valley
constituencies, which is 30 per cent. on average.
The figures vary: it is up to 40 per cent. in some constituencies and
as high as 73 per cent in my constituency, for example. I am sure that
that has nothing to do with me; it is all to do with the Labour
Government. My right
hon. Friend talked about a strategic view for the valleys to take
forward and build on the achievements. Clearly more work needs to be
done. With the conversion funding, which replaces the objective 1
programme, the Assembly has announced that it wants a far more
strategic view to be taken with far more strategic projects. His
thinking certainly chimes in with what Andrew Davies, the Minister with
responsibility for this, is doing. Already there is a strategic
partnership covering the heads of the valleys. It is up to the usual
channels to decide on future debates, but certainly it would be
interesting to have one on how conversion funding is being
developed. Many hon.
Members referred to the climate change Bill and the measures within the
PBR. The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham, the hon. Member for
Montgomeryshire, when he was here, my hon. Friends the Members for Ynys
Môn and for Aberavon, my right hon. Friend the Member for
Cardiff, South and Penarth, my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli and
the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire all raised issues relating
to climate change. I shall say one thing about annual targets and echo
the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and
Penarth. We all
accept that it is a global problem and the view taken in international
regulations is that annual targets are pointless. It is the long-term
trend and action for the long term that are important. The hon.
Memberfor Chesham and Amersham spoke of the need
foran independent review to look at these rolling improvements
in emission reductions. It is already in the Bill. An independent
carbon committee will review the reductions in emissions and bring it
to the attention of both Government and Parliament if problems arise.
If we try to set annual targets, one, two or three bad winters could
mean that the targets are not met. People will say that the policy is
failing, whereas we may well be achieving our long-term target of a 60
per cent. reduction in CO2 emissions by
2050. A White Paper on
the marine Bill will be published early in the new year. I totally
agree with the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire about what an
important tourist asset and environmental asset our waterways are.
Nobody wants to see a return to the dereliction that many of our canals
fell into for almost hundreds of years, in some cases, certainly since
the explosion of the railways in the mid-19th century. Significant
investment is still going into our waterways system. The work of
British Waterways is certainly appreciated by the Government. I hope
that my comments reassure him.
Hon. Members raised particular
problems aboutthe police. It is worth re-emphasising that
since the Government came to power in 1997, we have more than 1,000
additional police officers in Wales andhave brought in
community support officers. I had a meeting yesterday with the Minister
for Policing, Security and Community Safety to discuss the problem
in Dyfed-Powys. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen raised the
problem that Gwent police have had in funding their CSOs because of the
problem of getting a payment out of the Home Office. We have checked on
that and I understand that a request for £2.8 million has only
recently been submitted to the Home Office for the policing of the
summit of Foreign Ministers in Newport. Obviously, discussions will
take place, but we hope that that matter is
addressed. | 
