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If that was the Home Office’s thinking in 2005, what has happened since? Not a lot, to coin a phrase. Two contrasting factors continue to predominate: first, the political imperative to which I have alluded; secondly, the fact that the vast majority of prisoners—67 per cent.—are reconvicted within two years of release. Therefore, for the vast majority, prison simply does not work. Despite what the Home Secretary said in opening the debate, one problem is that prison’s rehabilitation element is being severely undermined. If
people are sentenced to less than 12 months, they are unlikely to have any rehabilitation whatsoever. In such cases, the reoffending rate is 78 or 79 per cent.
Mr. Sheerman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when the Education and Skills Committee looked at prison education only last year, it became clear that the instability that all these changes to NOMS is creating in our overcrowded prisons is making it impossible for very good people in and outside the prison system to deliver a rehabilitation and education programme that works?
Mr. Llwyd: I agree entirely. I have discussed the issue with prison officers, educators and members of the probation service, and all of them are in a state of flux. They do not have a clue what is happening. I mentioned earlier the many written parliamentary questions that have been tabled on this issue, a lot of which have been tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). We still do not know the answers to core questions about how NOMS will shape up. Heavens above—if those who actually work there are not told the answers, what hope is there for any kind of morale in the service? As the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) has just pointed out, it is absolutely vital and fundamental that rehabilitation be uppermost in one’s mind when someone is in custody. That is the only way to turn such people around.
There is a vast amount of work to be done, but NOMS—which is something of a fig leaf—and this Bill are not the answer. I hope that at some point we can deal with the following issues. First, can we not have an audit of all those in prison who should not be there? What about those with mental health or drug problems? After all is said and done, a drug addiction is an illness. It is not that such a person is intrinsically bad; they are suffering from an awful illness, and one exemplar of that illness is the criminality that feeds that habit. That is a terrible situation to be in, and we need to address the problem in a different way. We need to concentrate far more on assisting those people, so that they do not simply come out of prison and start again, thereby getting into an awful spiral—or stuck in the revolving door, as it has been referred to.
There are some beacons of good practice. Altcourse prison, in Liverpool, has a very good course for taking people off drugs, and so on. I hope that we can reach a sensible position, ignore the tabloids and the less progressive elements who are shouting at us Members of Parliament from the sidelines —[Interruption.] Actually, they are not on the sidelines; they are just behind me. I hope that we can have a mature, grown-up and sensible debate, because that is what this important issue needs.
I would point out to any member of the public who is listening that I am very much in favour of proper community penalties, which are cost-effective. They are a form of redress whereby the transgressor gives back to the transgressed, and they do work in dealing with reoffending.
The Home Secretary said earlier that 5,000 extra probation officers have been engaged in the past five to seven years. According to Lord Ramsbotham,
“there are 300 fewer officers and 1,500 more bureaucrats”.
I think it was the hon. Member for Batley and Spen who said that nobody seems to know what the NOMS bureaucrats are doing. I doubt whether they even have desks yet, let alone any tasks. They are no doubt being paid very well, but what they actually do nobody seems to know. Worse still, we do not know what they will be doing in future. This is change for change’s sake. Lord Ramsbotham said the following about the Bill:
“What would I do? It is difficult to know where to start but my first move would be to drop any move towards what is euphemistically called a national offender management service.”
The Lord Chief Justice, who recently posed as someone doing community service, has entered the debate. Perhaps more importantly, in a paper entitled “Alternatives to Custody—the Case for Community Sentencing”, which was issued by Oxford university’s centre for criminology, he said:
“First and foremost we need the appropriate resources”.
Those very simple words actually mean that we need more fully trained probation officers on the ground. We need proper, structured, medium and long-term orders. They are not a soft option; they do work.
When I was a young solicitor in the 1970s, there were three or four probation officers based in the local town. There is now one, based 40 miles away. That is a snapshot of where we are now. The hon. Member for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy) said that people often bond with representatives of the voluntary sector more than with probation officers. Well, if one person has to cover such a vast area of north Wales, with all the hours of travelling that involves, I am not surprised that she is less available to advise and befriend those on probation.
I recently attended a conference held by the Coalition on Social and Criminal Justice, which wholeheartedly endorsed more use of community penalties and, in particular, the local partnership approach, bringing in social services, the probation service, the health service and magistrates. That is a helpful contribution to the debate. Unfortunately, however, there will be no requirement to have magistrates on the new trusts. If the Bill has to become law—I would prefer it not to—I hope that the Government will consider how fundamentally important it is for sentences, in the magistrates and Crown courts, to be an integral part of the system. However, any movement in that area presupposes more investment in properly trained probation officers. I will not dwell on the Scottish model as it has already been mentioned, but it seems to be working. It involves a statutory duty for the services to work together and consult. I have no objection to that.
As a young, idealistic lawyer in the 1970s, I came across young people who offended time after time. I also defended some who had offended once or twice and were at a crossroads in their lives. I saw first hand dedicated probation officers working with them. I sometimes meet those ex-offenders, now respected members of the community and proud parents and grandparents who hold down good jobs and serve on town and community councils. I shudder to think what would have happened to them if they had offended now and not then. Would they have gone straight into a young offenders institution? Would they have taken the wrong turn at that crossroads in their lives? Sadly, I think that the answer is yes, but it gives me no pleasure to say so.
7.12 pm
Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful, careful and expert analysis of the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), but the key point in the debate came when the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) spoke from the Opposition Front Bench. As he went through his critique of the centralisation that the Bill would involve, he had the rapt attention of no fewer than four Government Whips. The tension visibly drained from the Chamber as he announced that the Opposition would not oppose the Bill tonight. The day of reckoning for the Bill has therefore been postponed, but—in accordance with the spirit of Christmas—I wish to offer a few thoughts to my hon. Friends on the Front Bench on how we could be more united on the Bill by Report. It would certainly be good if the House of Commons could resolve the issue instead of sending it on to the other place.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe), is not in his place at present, but I am keen to reach an accommodation with him especially as we share many core beliefs, not least in our football team, Bradford City, and our candidate for the deputy leadership. I therefore speak tonight in a spirit of good will.
The Bill has wider implications than just the probation service. It is all about the Government’s interaction with the private sector and the involvement of the private and voluntary sectors in the provision of public services. The Bill is so radical in its intent and scope that it disturbs many of the established principles that the Government have proclaimed in that area. My hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mike Wood) said that what matters is what works, which was originally said by Lord Kinnock, when he was leader of the Labour party. We have moved a long way from that in the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary referred to a gradualist approach, but there is nothing gradual about the Bill. The parliamentary Labour party briefing stresses that no less than £250 million of expenditure on probation will be put out to contestability within 15 months—in the financial year beginning in 2008. That is a lot of money.
The second principle—that of localism—that has so far influenced the Government’s commissioning of the voluntary and private sectors has been removed from the Bill. That is in contrast with what is happening in the health service, for which Lord Warner has recently said that decisions on commissioning private services should be made at a local level, because local accountability is important. That would not be the case for the probation service, for which the principle seems to be that the man from Whitehall and the regional commissioners know best.
The third principle is the inclusion of charities and the voluntary sector. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy) spoke movingly and with great conviction about the importance of that role. It has been interesting to note that whenever in doubt my hon. Friend the Minister intervenes, as he has done on at least three occasions, to ask whether the hon. Member concerned can possibly be opposed to involving NACRO, Turning Point and Shelter—that is his usual trio—in the provision of public services. He
never mentions Serco, which is by far the dominant provider in the prison sector and probably in the probation sector. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Minister is now in his place again.
It is interesting that some parts of the voluntary sector have been more critical of the Bill than NACRO, Turning Point and Shelter. For example, the YMCA has said that the Bill has
“a narrow vision of the voluntary sector. The Bill simply places the sector alongside others for services to be merely transferred, neglecting the particular contribution that a voluntary relationship has on preventing re-offending.”
Pete Crossley, who is YMCA England’s prisons unit director, echoing the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East, said:
“If charities are allowed to offer optional support services, the chances of rehabilitation are far greater. This is because the relationship between the charity and the young offender is one which both have chosen. Take away the voluntary element and you remove an important degree of trust which could be disastrous for the charity’s effectiveness.”
“If the sector”—
that is, the voluntary sector—
“is merely seen as an alternative provider of public services the Government will overlook the distinctive characteristics of both sectors. The voluntary sector cannot absorb the state’s responsibility for public protection.”
The Probation Boards Association makes some similar observations. It says:
“Complex contractual arrangements go against the government Compact with the voluntary sector. A contract culture can be restrictive, creating boundaries and constraints and may alter the voluntary sector culture of commitment and innovation.”
In other words, if we are to preserve the innovation of the voluntary sector, we cannot have it replacing large chunks of the core probation service, because that risks losing the added value that it brings.
I have mentioned Serco and we should be sceptical about exactly what such non-specialist firms can bring to the public services. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that certain public services can also be criticised, but within the past few weeks Serco’s press record on the public services in which it is involved shows that it has been criticised for the closure of leisure centres in Leyland, because of widespread poisoning; in Walsall for the disappearance of £850,000 without proper audit, according to the internal audit service; in Cornwall for the near collapse of the out-of-hours health service; in Doncaster by the chief inspector of prisons for providing a squalid service; and in Bradford for missing 50 per cent. of its targets. Given that Serco is the major firm trying to grasp, or take over, a large proportion of the probation service, a greater degree of scepticism from Ministers is probably called for.
Finally, the fourth principle to which new Labour has held while developing voluntary and private sector participation is that there should be a core public service. It has been assumed that the state would continue to make some direct provision. Ministers have said that they envisage only 10 per cent. of health services being put out to the private sector, but there is no limit in terms of the probation service. It costs
£70,000 to train a probation officer, for example, and there is a cavalier attitude to what might happen to training in the probation service; but a substantial core public service element is vital to maintaining professional standards in any public service. Earlier this year, Lord Browne, the chairman of BP, said that pseudo-markets risk damaging the professional ethos in academic institutions, hospitals and jails, which should give us at least pause for thought.
I began my speech in the absence of the Minister, but I am pleased that he has now returned to the Chamber. In the spirit of Christmas, I have been trying to suggest changes to the Bill so that it will command the support of the House when it returns here, probably in February. I very much doubt that it can command such support at present. Those changes would be based on a more localist approach, with more local commissioning, and wider recognition that the value of the core function of the probation service is irreducible. If we were to proceed along those lines, a majority could be commanded; if not, I suspect that the Bill will have a rough ride on Report and in the other place.
7.21 pm
Derek Conway (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): Before I commence my remarks, I apologise both to the Minister and to my colleague on the Opposition Front-Bench, the hon. Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire), for not being in the Chamber to hear the opening speeches. I had to chair the draft Films (Definition of “British Film”) (No. 2) Order 2006 Committee, which was one of the more exciting 90 minutes of my life, so I had to miss the opening speeches. I apologise to the Chamber.
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan), who raised several points and put some effective warning shots across the bows of his hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench, which will probably make sure that he is not appointed to the scrutiny Committee. Some of his points may have been based a little on the old Labour tenet: everything private must be suspected but everything public is probably good. In the major tenor of debate, it is good to note that the two major parties have moved on a little from that position, so I am not over-worried about that aspect of the Bill.
The contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) was an effective critique of where the system is going wrong. Is the present system working? Clearly, the Government think not, nor do Opposition Members—even those who may not agree with the Bill. Most certainly, our constituents do not think that the system is working. In general, the British public do not believe that any deterrence is left in it, although of course they do not mean the deterrence advocated by The Sun or the Daily Mail, who would probably happily bring back the flogging wheel at all our penal institutions.
A survey about the element of fear found that people committing acts of violence do so more often for kicks rather than necessarily for material reward, which is part of the worrying problem that must concern the House. Reoffending rates are also worrying, and the
hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who has immense experience at the Bar, spoke effectively about them in his contribution. I am not sure what we can do about those things. The problem is that no one knows.
We know that the system is not working, but we are not at all sure that the Bill is the answer. Part of the trouble is that our society is changing so rapidly. Are our offender institutions, our penal institutions and our centres of detention producing better citizens at the end of custodial sentences? No one believes that. In the political debate, it does not really matter whether one is on the far wing of the hang ’em, flog ’em and amputate limbs as a matter of discouragement party, or on the now-to-be-embraced by my party Polly Toynbee huggy-touchy-feely wing; neither extreme has the answer as far as the British public are concerned.
Is it simply that the probation service is useless? One would think so, if one relied on the tabloid media, but most Members who have contact with their local probation service find that that is not the case. I am sure that the service has moved on since the days of one of my uncles. He was a physical training instructor in the Army and when he left he became a probation officer. Not many youths would cross his advice. However, the days of people applying a bit of military brawn to such challenges have long since passed; now he would need a social work degree and a lot more Polly Toynbee compassion. Again, one tends to wonder which wing was right.
On balance, the probation service gets an unfair press. Probation officers I meet are undoubtedly trying hard to help produce better citizens. God knows, the job is dangerous and posts are not necessarily well rewarded. Perhaps higher up the management chain people are on good salaries, but those who are doing the job on the streets are not particularly well rewarded, certainly not in relation to the personal risks they face. I hope that those in the probation service who are following the debates on the legislation will not feel that society thinks them a completely useless bunch. That is not the tenor of the debate in the House this evening.
Mr. Sutcliffe: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, which we want to reinforce. It has been said during the debate that the Bill is an attack on the probation service. It is not; it is about ensuring that we make the best use of the professionalism and skills of probation officers in doing a dangerous job and enhancing that reputation. I agree that much of the media coverage attacks probation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the media should tell people about what probation officers do so that our communities can have trust in their work on our behalf?
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