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On sanctions, I wish to confirm the points made by the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey and disputed by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) about the backdating of sanctions. We will never sanction in the assessment phase. Nor will we reclaim retrospectively money already paid to the customer in the assessment phase.
I hope that that reassures the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey. I also hope that my comments have encouraged my hon. Friends not to press their amendments to a vote, and have given some reassurance to Conservative Members supporting new clause 7.
There is no power to sanction the support group in the Bill, and there will be no such power in the guidance or in operation. We will not seek to impose a sanction on any member of the support group for volunteering to participate in an interview. A changed PCA, not the act of volunteering, would remove someone from the group.
Mr. Ruffley: I agree with one thing that the Minister said: in his opening remarks, he observed that I had been phenomenally well briefed throughout our proceedings. I am less sure that I agree with his other observations.
I will keep my remarks brief. The fact remains that there has been no misunderstanding among Conservative Members about the purport of new clause 7. For reasons adduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) and, in a powerful speech, by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), it is perfectly clear what the new clause does. It gives comfort and reassurance to members of the support group who wish to do the right thing and volunteer to take part in work-focused interviews leading—we hope—to work-related activity. No such provision appears in the Bill.
The matter needs clarification. That is what is behind the new clause, and it is in that spirit alone that I wish to press the new clause to a Division.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 219, Noes 294.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Alexander, Danny
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baron, Mr. John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paisley, rh Rev. Ian
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Salmond, Mr. Alex
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Walter, Mr. Robert
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. David Evennett and
Mr. Tobias Ellwood
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Tony Cunningham and
Mr. Ian Cawsey
Question accordingly negatived.
Roger Berry: I beg to move amendment No. 79, in page 6, line 28, leave out ‘medical examination’ and insert ‘assessment’.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
No. 80, in page 6, line 37, leave out ‘a medical examination’ and insert ‘an assessment’.
No. 81, in clause 9, page 7, line 30, leave out from ‘medical examination’ and insert ‘assessment’.
No. 82, in page 7, line 38, leave out ‘a medical examination’ and insert ‘an assessment’.
No. 89, in clause 10, page 8, line 7, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 90, in page 8, line 12, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 91, in page 8, line 15, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 92, in page 8, line 22, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 93, in page 8, line 44, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 94, in page 9, line 2, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 95, in page 9, line 8, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 96, in page 9, line 11, leave out ‘health-related’.
No. 83, in page 9, line 12, leave out ‘health care’.
No. 72, in page 9, line 16, leave out ‘his physical or mental condition’ and insert
‘factors that limit his capability to work’.
No. 84, in page 9, line 20, leave out ‘health care’.
No. 85, in page 9, line 23, at end insert
‘or is concerned with the employment of such individuals’.
Roger Berry: All 16 amendments are in my name and the names of my hon. Friends; that is, I suppose, the parliamentary equivalent of getting a full house. I do not intend to dwell on each of them in detail, but I wish to explain what they have in common and where the differences lie. In essence, the amendments are an attempt to move the Bill, strong though it is, closer to a social model of disability and to make it less obviously focused on issues of medical assessment and health-related matters.
Let me illustrate my point by discussing the first sub-group. Amendments Nos. 79 to 82 would amend clauses 8 and 9, which concern assessments relating to limited capability for work and limited capability for work-related activity. As the Bill is currently drafted, regulations may make provision for such medical examinations as regulations may require. The purpose of the amendments is to remove the commitment that regulations must be limited to defining capability for work or work-related activity according to a medical examination.
The point that I am making is similar to that made by the hon. Member for South-West Surrey (Mr. Hunt) in his first contribution to the debate; he did not say that he was articulating the social model of disability, but of course he was. Gone are the days of 12 years ago when finding a Conservative MP who understood the social model of disability was a bit like winning on the pools. Now we are all into the social model of disability, which I welcome. I am being serious, not sarcastic, and I know that the hon. Member for South-West Surrey was not in the House 12 years ago. My serious point is that the whole House seems to have moved towards an understanding that the problems faced by disabled people and those with long-term illnesses in trying to secure employment are not just a medical issue. Medical matters are important, of course, but the whole issue is more important than that.
The first four amendments are designed to extend the ability of regulations to include other factors and other types of assessment that may not be medically related. Perhaps I can give a simple example. Let us consider someone with a sight impairment. Assessing such a person’s capability for work-related activity may matter little as far as a medical examination is concerned. A medical examination may not tell us anything at all that we do not already know; it may be of no value in making a serious assessment of whether such an individual is capable of work-related activity. If one talks about assistive technology for people with sight impairments, one is probably getting closer to the nub of the problem. A whole range of circumstances and other factors—in addition to the specific sight impairment—may affect a person’s capability of undertaking work-related activity. I have already referred to assistive technology, but education, skills, training or environmental factors such as access to the workplace may also be relevant, as may other factors within the purview of the employer. Financial support from the Government and whether funding is available for reasonable adjustments are further factors.
The main point is quite simple: changing the wording in clauses 8 and 9 to include “assessment” rather than “medical examination” leaves open the possibility that regulations can investigate and address the relevant factors. If we do not change the wording, we will close off the possibility of taking into account issues that are, in my view, essential to determining whether people have a limited capability for work or for engaging in work-related activity.
John Robertson: Is my hon. Friend saying that in changing the words from “health assessment” to just “assessment”, he means that there has to be an ability for more than one person’s assessment of the client or customer to be taken into consideration? Does he mean that a physiotherapist or perhaps a social worker who understands the client’s problems should be involved? Is he saying that someone needs to look at the bigger picture rather than take account only of ordinary health matters?
Roger Berry: Yes, indeed; I am saying precisely that. I will come in a few moments to the amendments that deal particularly with assessments. I am concerned that parts of the Bill refer only to assessments by health professionals, because when we consider the factors that restrict people’s ability to engage in work-related activity, not only the health professional’s assessment matters. It is the assessment of professionals who understand the workplace that matters.
Mr. Weir: I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman and his amendments seem sensible, but given that his examples relate to new technology or perhaps involve adaptations to the workplace, considerable costs may be incurred. We have already heard concerns about funding the roll-out of pathways to work, so has he made any investigations into the potential cost of the changes that he wants?
Roger Berry: The hon. Gentleman will know that I have raised the issue of resourcing this programme both in the Chamber and elsewhere, and I am sure that discussions between the Minister and the Treasury are ongoing. Clearly, the important point is that the more people are empowered to go back to work, the more the Exchequer saves a substantial sum of money: the recycling possibilities are enormous.
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