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Mr. David:
Absolutely. We are having a debate, are we not? The essence of a debate is not simply to have
set-piece speeches, but to thrash out the issues. We have had a very good debate this morning, and to prove the point, I shall give way again.
Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman be able to yield the Floor before the end of this debate so that the views of Croydon residents can be heard?
Mr. David: As I have indicated, I am trying to make progress with my speech. I am also, however, trying to be courteous to Members. If, like the hon. Gentleman, they insist on making interventions, I will give way— [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) wish to make an intervention?
Mr. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): No.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman now made progress with his speech.
Mr. David: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for reinforcing the point that I have made.
Having referred to the Government’s White Paper, I want to refer to the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. In this debate, health has been referred to in a slightly misleading way, which deviated from the thrust of the Bill before us. Nevertheless, the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill represents a significant step forward in the devolution of power and public involvement, which is the subject of the debate. I cite that Bill because I firmly believe that we cannot give the impression that the issue of sustainable communities is the only one on the agenda in terms of public involvement and public empowerment; rather, it is one aspect of a broader debate. It makes sense for us to debate the principles enshrined in both documents, and I have tried to compare and contrast them in my modest contribution. In the Government’s White Paper and the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill, those points have been given more consideration than, for example, the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) has given them.
Mr. Dismore: My hon. Friend has made the important point that we should be debating the principles of the Bill. As I think we have made clear, none of us disagrees with the principles, but we must also debate the practicalities, which my hon. Friend has done very effectively so far. Perhaps the most ill-thought-out of the practicalities is clause 13(5), which states:
“This Act shall come into force on the very day on which it is passed.”
That is a most unusual way of implementing a Bill. What does my hon. Friend think the implications would be for staffing of the Department that must deal with all the different plans, and for local authorities?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that that will do for the time being.
Mr. David:
Neither of those questions is best put to me. I have no easy answer to either of them. I should
like to have easy answers so that I could support the Bill, but there are no easy answers. I offer the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood the opportunity to respond to both questions immediately.
Members have raised umpteen points and asked for a great deal of clarification during the debate, but no clarification has been given by the Bill’s promoter or its sponsors, and I am sure that that will be taken into account when we vote on it.
Mr. Jones: According to clause 11, for the purposes of local community allocation
“‘principal council’ has the meaning as given in section 270 of the Local Government Act 1972”.
Would that not have a terrible effect in two-tier county areas? I assume that in such areas “council” would mean “county council”, and that a whole tier of local government—district councils—would be ignored.
Mr. David: Wales has a unitary system, but in my experience in England today and in Wales before local government reform, local authorities have often not got on with each other as well as they might. Council members sometimes disagree on which is the principal authority.
Mr. Letwin: It would be the district council.
Mr. Jones: In that case, the county tier will be ignored. One tier or the other is bound to be cut out. Does the definition not mean that an entire level of democratically elected local government will be completely ignored?
Mr. David: I can only assume that that is what is intended by the Bill’s supporters, or at least some of them. [Hon. Members: “Nonsense.”] Members say “Nonsense”, but no one is coming forward with an argument to contradict the very good point raised by my hon. Friend. Yet again, there is a need for clarity. [Interruption.] The Liberal Democrats huff and puff, but they have no answer either. I will let Members try to think of an answer.
As I approach the conclusion of my speech—[Hon. Members: “Shame!”]
Mr. David: I will give way one last time.
Mr. Dismore: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He has been speaking for almost an hour, and he has made some very important points, but one point that has not arisen so far is the fact that no notice of compliance with the Human Rights Act is attached to the Bill. The Bill raises a series of significant issues that are relevant to the Act, including the property rights issue raised by the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy). What does my hon. Friend think should be done to ensure that the Bill complies with it?
Mr. David:
I am conscious of the fact that my hon. Friend is a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. [Hon. Members: “He chairs it.”] I apologise. In that case, he speaks with even more authority than I imagined. I am sure that if the Bill proceeds to its next
parliamentary stage, he will give us the benefit of his wisdom—not just as chair of the relevant Committee in the House, but as a distinguished lawyer—and advise us on how the Bill should be made compliant with the Act.
In conclusion—I will appreciate it if Members do not seek to intervene again, as I wish to give others an opportunity to speak—what is needed is a new belief in ordinary people and the communities of this country. A significant consensus has been established in this House, and it is necessary to bring about meaningful change. Let me read a quote from the Government’s local government White Paper, “Strong and prosperous communities”, because it expresses very well what is emphasised in both the Bill and that White Paper. It states:
“we now need to give local authorities and their partners more freedom and powers to meet the needs of their citizens and communities—and enable citizens and communities themselves to play their part.”
I am sure that every Member agrees with those comments. Regardless of what happens in terms of the passage of the Bill, we have made considerable progress. Ministers will register what has been said in our debate, and I am sure that the points that have been made will be taken into account when legislation is produced from the White Paper. We face a challenge, and the Government recognise it. I hope that the House will reaffirm its support for the Government approach, and that, in turn, the Government will take on board the views of Members.
12.6 pm
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): I am grateful to be able to speak at this stage of the debate. I had intended to try to do so at a later stage, but, after having listened for an hour to the lucubrations of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David), I fear that another Member might attempt to filibuster and I would prefer to say a few words beforehand. As I listened to the hon. Gentleman I had the deep thought, “Come back Eric, all is forgiven.”
Before I proceed, let me deal with the only serious point raised by the hon. Gentleman during his hour-long speech. It concerns the Secretary of State’s veto provided for in the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman wishes the Bill to be allowed to proceed and become law but with that veto removed, that is an extremely interesting proposition. The veto was included in the Bill to try to make it easier for the Government to accept it. In the highly unlikely circumstance that a local authority puts forward a plan that is manifestly absurd—perhaps because a huge local democratic deficit led to the election of a number of monkeys—the Bill provides for the Secretary of State to veto such a local plan. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to remove that veto and to argue for that in Committee, I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Hurd) would welcome his presence on that Committee—although, in light of the hon. Gentleman’s performance, I doubt that my hon. Friend will be in a position to do so.
The reason why many Members from all parts of the House believe that the Bill is important is that we have all witnessed what my hon. Friend outlined in his cogent and well measured speech: the genuine
dissatisfaction of many of our constituents—across party divide, across the country and across different parts of the country—that arises from the feeling that they cannot have much effect on what happens in their lives and in respect of the quality of their lives. We all know that that is the case, and we all know that it is leading to a progressive disenchantment with politicians and political and democratic institutions. Therefore, although it was jolly to listen to the contribution of the last hour, we are debating something that is of extraordinary importance.
Unless we take steps that are real rather than cosmetic—I shall return to that point—to give people more power over their lives locally, I believe that we will, if not in five or 10 years, in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years from now, have cause to regret that we did not take steps long ago. We will find that the degree to which people are disenchanted, apathetic and distrustful of politics will become unsustainable. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) says from a sedentary position that we started it. I hope that he noticed from the observations that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood made in his introduction that we are not advancing this measure in a partisan spirit, and that we accept that Conservative, as well as Labour Governments, have been part of the cause of this difficulty. We are trying to remedy a constitutional deficit in our country, and it behoves us all to take that proposition seriously, rather than engaging in partisan politics in considering it.
Mr. Kevan Jones: It is quite convenient for the right hon. Gentleman to forget history. Was it not a Conservative Government who abolished the Greater London council, Tyne and Wear metropolitan district council and other such bodies without any consultation with local people? Was it not also a Conservative Government who continued to restrict the powers of local government and bore down on it through central control? We are dealing with the legacy of that today. So he cannot just conveniently—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has made his point.
Mr. Letwin: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is hard of hearing, but I said a moment ago that I accept that Conservative Governments, alongside Labour ones, have been part of the cause of this problem. The issue is not that, but how we move forward now in the interests of our country. He ought to be united with us in that cause, just as many other Labour Members are united with us.
This is a constitutional Bill, in the sense that it is not about what happens substantively in a given locality; that will be for local politics to decide. There will be differing views. Some will be highly charged and political; others will cross party lines. The Bill does not seek to achieve particular substantive effects in given localities. On the contrary, it seeks to achieve a shift of power from the centre to the localities that permits arguments to rage at local level.
Shona McIsaac:
When I was a Home Office Parliamentary Private Secretary and the right hon.
Gentleman was shadow Home Secretary, I always found him very generous when responding to queries. He mentions shifting the emphasis to the localities. I intervened earlier on my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) about the role of parish and town councils, which cover some 16 million people in England alone. Does the right hon. Gentleman have any particular views on enhancing their powers, and does he think that new ones should be created? That could be a way of providing more accountability in respect of sustainable communities.
Mr. Letwin: That is a very interesting and serious question that I will reply to in two ways. First, yes, my hon. Friends and I do support a whole series of moves to bolster town and parish councils, and I think that I can say from the Dispatch Box today that we will support such measures when the Government bring before the House on Monday a Bill on that issue.
Secondly, although those measures are not in the Bill before us today—not least because they are in the other Bill—the two Bills are in that respect complementary, just as they are in many other respects, which I shall come to in a moment. Borough and district councils will be given significantly more power compared with central Government if this Bill becomes law. It is much easier for parish and town councils to influence borough and district councils than it is for them to influence central Government. They are manifestly much closer to the scene of the action, and much more interpenetrative. In my area, for example, district councils typically attend parish and town council meetings. I do not suppose that the Minister has time to do that in every parish and town in Britain, and nor would I expect him to. Therefore, the Bill before us moves in the direction of increasing power at a lower level even than the district or borough, but it goes beyond that. There is specific provision for parish and town councils to be part of the group of people who are actively consulted when a local plan is being made.
The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) has given me the chance to move on to my next point. This Bill does not create a one-off shift in the nature of our government. This is a Bill in the fine tradition of British constitutional development. It creates the basis for a gradual and progressive revolution in government over many years, because it sets up a ratchet that will exert increasing force over time. Once people comprehend the degree of power that the Bill will give them over how money is spent in their localities, they will increasingly demand more and at a lower level yet. There will be pressure for some of the decisions that the Bill conveys into the hands of boroughs and districts to be further conveyed into the hands of towns and parishes, and—who knows—perhaps eventually into the hands of even smaller neighbourhoods.
I have considerable sympathy—I would have even more if it had been carried forward into action in some way—with the doctrine expressed by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, before he occupied that post, that we should have double devolution. We certainly do not see the district or borough council as the last word in localism. On the contrary, they are important staging posts on the road towards that.
Mr. Hoyle: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, but in reality the 60 million-plus people in England do not have representation on parish and town councils. Areas outside towns have such representations, but the majority of people do not. We have to ensure that they have a voice too, because I do believe in devolving powers to town and parish councils.
Mr. Letwin: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. To be fair, the Government are moving towards filling that hole in representation in our cities. Town and parish councils will not necessarily be the final resting point for powers: the hon. Gentleman and I both know that some estates in our cities have identifiable communities and neighbourhoods and, sooner or later—I hope sooner—we need to reach a position in which they feel that they have a say over their estate. We are not there yet, but the Bill tries to begin the process.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood made considerable progress in anticipating the Government’s arguments, and I think that I know what two of their main arguments will be. The first is that the Bill to be considered on Monday includes the concept of a duty to co-operate, in which they seek to give more effect to the spirit of local area agreements and to have agencies and Departments represented around the table in local area agreements pay more heed to local voices. I welcome that. It is a step forward. It also in no way contradicts this Bill, which would in fact take matters much further.
I shall illustrate my point with a concrete example. My hon. Friend mentioned Kent, where some £8 billion of public money is spent. About £2 billion of it is spent by local authorities and some £6 billion by the Government and their agencies. The local area agreement is one of the most effectively organised in the country, and it is certainly one in which everybody has tried to co-operate. It has done a great deal of good, but if one talks to people in Kent, one discovers that the degree of influence of the local authorities is heavily circumscribed, because they are not the principal budget holders. In this House we spend a lot of time legislating and talking about legislation, but we are all grown-ups and we know perfectly well that power in government today largely resides in the control of the money, not in the control of the law.
The truth is that the Bill, by enabling a significant transfer of the power over the money—however it is amended during its passage—will alter the relationships within local area agreements, so that the whip hand increasingly transfers to the local authorities. I say increasingly, because the Bill, by defining the role of the Minister as setting the limits of what is “of primarily national significance”, will create a gradually opening lock gate.
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