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Mr. Peter Robinson:
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will forgive me if I do not follow him down the track of his latter remarks, which are, I am sure, the opening salvo of the election campaign in which he will show that the SDLP is more green and belligerent than Sinn Fein. However, I shall comment on some of his earlier remarks because he, at least, appears to have read and understood the Bill, which cannot be said for the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
If the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) has read the Bill, he has certainly not understood it, because had he done so he might have raised his voice on behalf of his sister party in Northern Ireland, which is unfairly treated by the measure. Later I shall point out to the hon. Gentleman how he was negligent, and at that stage he may want to set his position straight.
First, however, I want to indicate the unsatisfactory manner in which the Government are approaching the issue. We are at the Report stage of an important piece of legislation, yet the Government are introducing a significant provision through a side door. As we can see by the confusion in various quarters of the House, their proposals required a proper Committee sitting so that they could be thoroughly scrutinised and perfectly understoodif, indeed, anything is perfectly understood at the end of a Committee stage. None the less, it is clear that the Government have introduced the new clause on a whim, to get the Bill through post-haste. But why? Why is there such a rush to pass the Bill?
The Ministers best hope is that it might be possible for the Assembly to address the issue by May 2008, so why is he introducing the legislation in 2007 and requiring it to be steamrollered through the House in such a manner? No one on this side of the House has asked for it to be done in that wayand I get the impression from the speech made by the hon. Member for Foyle that he has not exactly been pushing the Minister for this piece of legislation. I am not sureperhaps the Minister will tell uswhy there is a rush to get this piece of legislation on to the statute book when, as he says himself, it is clearly at least 14 or 16 months before what it contains could be imposed on us. Let us be clear: the Minister has a motive that he has not shared with the House. Perhaps when he responds to the debate he will share it with us.
Mr. Bone: Could the reason why we are debating the measure now, and not in Committee, be because it could be imposed without going through the triple lock? That is my fear. That does not seem to have been addressed by anyone.
Mr. Robinson: The difficulty that a number of Members face with this issue is that they cannot separate in their minds the creation of a Department from the fact that that Department would not have powers devolved to it. The reality is that all that the Bill does is to create a shell. It allows the model to be put in place, but the powers that would allow that Department to operate would be devolved only at such a time as the triple lock would operate. That is what is set out in the Bill and that is what the Minister was encouraged to say and eventually got round to saying, after at least half a dozen attempts to get him to do so by my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) and others. It is what the Secretary of State said when closely examined on the issue in the Sub-group on Policing and Justice in the Assembly. I believe that, even if we had discussed this matter in Committee, the same conclusion would have been reached.
Mr. Dodds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right in that analysis. To reinforce that point, hon. Members should look at subsection (6) of new clause 5, which introduces into the Northern Ireland Act 1998 section 21B, on section 21A(5A). Proposed new section 21B(2) states that any Act or order introduced by the Secretary of State may include provisions that any
department is to be treated...as not having been established until the time at which devolved policing and justice functions are first transferred to, or conferred on, the department (the time of devolution).
That reinforces the point made by my hon. Friend and others on these Benches, and by the hon. Member for Foyle, that we are talking about a shell of a Departmenta model with no devolved powers.
Mr. Robinson: My hon. Friend is entirely correct and draws attention to a further element of the legislation that confirms what I am saying. I can see that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire is still uneasy about the matter. He might want to go and sit beside the Minister and seek comfort from him on the issue. If he wants to intervene, I am happy to give way.
Lembit Öpik: However much I may feel provoked by the hon. Gentleman, I can assure him that he is not going to drive me across to the Government Benches just now. The reason why I am disturbed is that my analysis of the provision in question is rather different. He may interpret it in the way that he describes, but it is perfectly feasible to interpret it as setting up more than just a shell, especially when one looks at subsections (7A), (7B) and (7C). Why is he so sure that the legislation, interpreted objectively, simply sets up a shell? It seems to do much more than that.
Mr. Robinson: I am not interpreting the legislation; I am indicating exactly what is in it. It is the hon. Gentleman who is misinterpreting the legislation, because it does not provide any functions for the Department. That is the key issue.
In the St. Andrews agreement, the Government clearly set down their belief that devolution of policing and justice powers could occur by May 2008. The Government are of course entitled to their view on that matter, but none of the parties was required to sign up to that date at St. Andrews. Had they been so required, the Minister would have got the same answer on that issue as the party gives on the issue of devolution itself. We are a party that is condition led, not calendar led.
Throughout the process, it has been at the heart of the Democratic Unionist partys strategy that we will not allow ourselves to be forced by deadlines to do things that would be wrong owing to the conditions on the ground. That must be the position of any sensible party if we are to have the stable and lasting devolution of any powers, including policing and justice powers.
The Minister will know that the DUP is a party that believes in devolution of the fullest possible kind. It thus believes that policing and justice powers should be devolved in the right circumstances and at the right time. He knows that that is our position because it was the position that we advanced to the Government back in 2004 when we considered matters that led to the Governments comprehensive agreement. We made it clear that we were working towards the devolution of
policing and justice powers. That is the endeavour of the DUP. I know that that is also the endeavour of the Government, and I hear that it is the endeavour of the Social Democratic and Labour party. However, the people who must build confidence so that policing and justice powers can be devolved in Northern Ireland are members of Sinn Fein. The DUP supports the police. The SDLP has taken up membership of the Policing Board and has publicly indicated its support for the police. No one questions the Governments support for the police. The party that must prove itself to the people of Northern Ireland is, of course, Sinn Fein.
The DUP believes that the necessary community confidence must be in place before the powers are devolved to Northern Ireland. Whatever dates the Minister might put forward, the key point must be whether the community is confident that such powers should be devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Among the criteria to consider at that stage would be whether the Assembly was sufficiently stable to have such sensitive powers devolved to it, and whether the model under which the powers would operate was workable and durable. We would also have to consider whether the Minister who would exercise the powers would have the support and confidence not only of one section of the community, but of the community as a whole.
When taking a decision on whether policing and justice powers should be devolved, any sensible democrat in the Assembly will make a judgment by considering such matters. They will not simply look at a calendar and say, Ah, this is the day on which devolution should take place, but will consider sensibly whether the circumstances on the ground are such that the powers can be safely devolved to Northern Ireland. That is the only judgment that a sensible politician would make.
I said that one of the criteria to consider will be whether the Assembly is sufficiently stable. I say to the Minister that the date of May 2008 would be at the earliest end of the tolerance of most peoples judgment of when the Assembly would be sufficiently bedded in and consolidated to allow such powers to be devolved. It is essential that Assembly Members deal with day-to-day politics and ensure that things are bedded in before the most sensitive and controversial powers are devolved to the Assembly.
Policing and justice powers are more controversial than health, education and other issues because they affect peoples lives: their safety, security and human rights. They relate to matters that touch every citizen in the country, every day. That is why such devolution cannot simply be forced by the calendar, and why great care must be taken when devolving such powersand I say that as someone who wants the maximum number of powers, including the maximum number of policing and justice powers, to be devolved to Northern Ireland.
The second criterion that I mentioned was the model. The Minister was chided by the hon. Member for Foyle because this is the fifth model to be thrown out. I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would take a bet that it will not be the last model. Before too long, someone will return to the House with new legislation under which we will address the matter again. That is why I think that, to some extent, we are wasting our time dealing with this matter today. This will not be the
last word on legislative arrangements for policing and justice powers being devolved in Northern Ireland. However, I recognise that the Government want to get things moving, so they have taken this step.
Some of my colleagues and I were heavily criticised. We irritated the Secretary of StateI know he was irritated because he told me sowith some of our remarks about the devolution of policing and justice. I said that, in the circumstances that then prevailed, where Sinn Fein was the largest party on the nationalist side and we were discussing a dHondt style of government, I could not imagine that in my lifetime there would be the community confidence in Sinn Fein that was necessary for those powers to be devolved. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) was attacked because he said that he could not see that happening in his political lifetime. My hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim used a metaphor of distance rather than time, saying that it was light years away. Whether one uses the language of time or of distance, the message from all three of us was that there was no immediate prospect of the community in Northern Ireland saying that it would be a good idea for policing and justice powers to be devolved if Sinn Fein were getting their hands on the post of Minister with responsibility for policing and justice.
I speak for myself and I believe I speak for my colleagues. None of us made those remarks because we wanted to be belligerent or as a threat. None of those remarks was made in the House or outside because that is what we wanted to happen. It was a clear analysis of what we believed the communitys position to be in the light of a campaign that has gone on for decades, in which the very people who will be put in charge of policing and justice were blowing up courts and killing policemen. That is the reality.
The Minister can put whatever dates he likes on a calendar, but that will not change the minds of people in Northern Ireland, who ask whether it is sensible for somebody who blew up the Old Bailey and tried to blow up Scotland Yard to be appointed Minister for policing and justice? It does not take too long to consider that proposition. The Minister knows that I am talking about Gerry Kelly, the policing and justice spokesman of Sinn Fein. It does not require much thought to realise that that may not be such a good idea.
We made those comments not to be difficult, but to bring some reality to the issue and to let the Government know exactly what they were proposing in Northern Ireland and what the reaction would be in the community. The Democratic Unionist party recognised the difficulty and sought to help the Government resolve the issue. The officers of the Democratic Unionist party put forward a proposal in the Sub-group on the programme for government, and the proposal was unanimously endorsed by our officer corps.
We suggested that if the difficulty was that the community could not have confidence in a particular party, we should have a system whereby the Minister was elected by the Assembly on a cross-community vote, so only somebody who had the confidence of the community would have the post. Let us set a weighted majority and ensure that there is a high degree of support. Rather than a Unionist candidate supported
by a few nationalists, or a nationalist supported by a few Unionists here and there, clear overall support from both communities would be required for the Minister to be acceptable.
To some extent, that has been the basis for the Governments model. They have not gone as far as we did. We required a 70 per cent. vote and a number of other conditions, but at least the Government have recognised that it is possible for policing and justice powers to be devolved without the post being in the hands of Sinn Fein. Let us leave parties out of it altogether. The only person who is excluded under the Governments system is somebody who cannot achieve the cross-community support that is necessary. That is the reality. My colleagues and I have made it clear that there are some people whom we cannot see as having that necessary support. I suspect that if I was to put myself forward for that position, I might not get the cross-community support that was necessary either. But who knows what the future might hold? However, the reality is that the position could be filled only if there was cross-community support.
There is a further problem. First of all, as has been said, not all policing and justice powers would reside automatically in a policing and justice Department. There are some residual powers in the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister. It would be sensible, if and when the circumstances come around and we deal with the minutiae of the issue, for all the policing and justice powers to be put into the one Department, not spread about.
The other issue is that under thisI will put it in the most pleasant way that I canpeculiar system of government, there would be an ability on the part of any three Ministers to call in any issue dealt with by another Minister for a vote within the Executive. We are dealing in policing and justice with matters that, as I have said, are particularly sensitive. Some will have legal implications. It is clear that there will have to be procedures, arrangements, protocolscall them what one willto ensure that there is some ring-fencing of the role of that Department because of the nature of the task before it. All those issues are essential and need to be dealt with before we can finally take decisions on the future of policing and justice in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon: I want to take the hon. Gentleman back to his point about the appointment of our most senior judiciary in Northern Ireland. As I understand it, instead of, as is the case now under legislation, the First and the Deputy First Ministers, acting jointlythat is the key phraseto appoint the most senior members of the judiciary, the DUP would prefer those appointments to be transferred to a single Justice Minister. Is that the DUPs preferred position?
Mr. Robinson: There would not be a single Justice Minister unless we had confidence in that Minister. Is the hon. Ladys proposition therefore that Martin McGuinness should be making appointments for senior posts to the judiciary?
Lady Hermon:
No, the point is that acting jointly means that his party leader, or at least the representative of the largest unionist party within the Assembly, the
DUP, would have a veto on the appointment by a single Minister. It increases cross-community confidence in the appointment of our judiciary. The words acting jointlythe First Minister and Deputy First Ministerare key, and that should remain the way in which the chief members of our judiciary are appointed. That was the point that I was making.
Mr. Robinson: Deadlock is the notion that comes more readily to my mind in those issues, but, again, who knows what the future will hold? The Deputy First Minister might well be the hon. Member for Foyle rather than his counterpart in Mid-Ulster. He is certainly making a fist of it. The Ulster Unionist party has tried to position itself in relation to the DUP, looking to the left and to the right wondering which way to go, and has dithered, doddled and fallen as a result. The hon. Gentleman has looked at his partys position in relation to Sinn Fein and decided that he wants to be more extreme than Sinn Fein. It is a hard act to follow, but he is attempting to do it. Who knows what will happen within the nationalist community, what the elections will show in that regard, and the implications not just for this legislation, but for the Assembly itself?
I want to turn to the triple lock, where some of the confusion seems to arise. The DUP negotiated the triple lock mechanism some years ago, and it is a sensible piece of legislation. It ensures that the First Minister must approve the devolution of powers before the matter gets to the Assembly, that the Assembly must approve the devolution of powers by a majority of both designations, and that this House must approve the devolution of powers. The Minister has made it abundantly clear that there will be no devolution of policing and justice unless the Assembly asks for the powers to be devolved.
Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): Is not the truth that powers cannot be imposed on an Assembly that does not want them and that is not prepared to work with them?
Mr. Robinson: My hon. Friend is right. That is the key issue. My hon. Friend may not be pleased to know that in making that statement she is in the company of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has made it clear that even if he had a mind to impose on the Assembly the devolution of those powers, and even if he had a mind to impose a Minister on the Assembly, those powers could not be worked if the Assembly did not want them and was not prepared to work them. That is realpolitik.
Mr. Laurence Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is right. The point is covered by proposed new subsection (7A)(c), which states that the Assembly must still elect the Minister and the deputy Minister. New clause 5 gives the Secretary of State the power to override the Assembly in setting up the Department. The hon. Gentleman may be happy with that, but I am not.
Mr. Robinson:
I agree that new clause 5 gives the Secretary of State the power to set up the Department. However, it does not give the Secretary of State the power to devolve policing and justice powers to that
Department. There may be a shell of a Department, but it cannot do anything until the powers are devolved to it.
I hope that I have made my understanding of the legislation very clear. If I have erred on a particular issue, I am sure that the Minister will put me right.
Lembit Öpik: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. How does he interpret proposed new subsection (7B):
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