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I am grateful to the Opposition for having raised this importance issue for defence at this time. It is just a pity we do not have an Adjournment debate on defence today, because I might have had the benefit of participating in that as well. However, this debate provides us with an opportunity to acknowledge the breadth of the Navy’s contribution and to clear up some of the confusion that evidently exists about its capability.

The contribution of the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) was a solid one, but he set some hares running that do not quite add up. He also carefully avoided the crunch question, which all Oppositions face as they scent what they believe to be power: are they going to make the spending commitments necessary to live up to their rhetoric and analysis? We wait with interest to see how that approach is going to develop over the months and years ahead.

I note in passing that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) is in his place. I look forward to his contribution, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy
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Speaker. He can tell us about the importance of the Royal Navy to Scotland—not just in Faslane and Rosyth, but elsewhere in the country—and how small that contribution would be with an independent Scottish navy.

In his opening comments, the hon. Member for Woodspring made a lot of play of the contribution of the previous First Sea Lord, which was forceful. He argued his corner well, but in his comments he also disparaged the existing First Sea Lord. [ Interruption. ] He made two references. The second was a quote and the first was a diminution of the role played by the existing First Sea Lord. Let me tell hon. Members—

Mr. Ellwood rose—

Mr. Ingram: No, I will not give way. Let me make my point. Let me tell hon. Members what the current First Sea Lord said on 16 February. I think that the implication was that he was forced to say what he said. That was the point that I was making when I referred to disparagement. The implication was that he was not prepared to come to his own conclusions. It is a matter of regret that that was said. It does not accord with my understanding of the integrity of Admiral Band, who said:

That was the charge that had been made about what he said. He went on to say:

Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con) rose—

Mr. Ingram: No, I will not give way, because I am conscious that we have to make progress. I will take one or two interventions later, but I am not going to be harried in the way that the hon. Gentleman quite likes. He will get the opportunity to make his point later.

I want to make a final point about budgets. When the hon. Gentleman’s party is considering what it is going to do about budgets for defence, it should bear in mind the fact that the defence budget today is 20 per cent. higher than it was in 1997, and 7.5 per cent. higher in real terms. That is a considerable investment in the military element of our overall budget approach in this country. I will deal more with that as I go on.

A key principle of the strategic defence review was that, in reshaping our forces, we would give them a real utility for dealing with the problems of the future, and not just an appearance of strength. There were arguments in the past that said that if one ship went, one other ship should come in. That was not what the SDR was about. The issue is about meeting the evolving situation and the analysis that was laid out in the strategic defence review. That is precisely what we have done and continue to do in respect of the Royal Navy. We knew that we had moved away from the risk of large-scale maritime warfare. We believed that future tasks would require a mix of capabilities—capabilities that would enable us to conduct tasks ranging from evacuation operations through to major war fighting as part of a joint force. So it has proved to be.


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Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The Minister praises the strategic defence review, as do we on this side. Will he therefore endorse the strategic defence review’s conclusion that we require 32 destroyers and frigates to carry out the tasks set for us?

Mr. Ingram: I referred to the evolving analysis that then has to take place. [ Interruption. ] If right hon. and hon. Members think that things stand still in defence planning and response, they will find it difficult to come to conclusions on a budget that makes any sense, because flexibility has to be included in the approach.

During the cold war, the role of the Navy seemed clear to us all: to protect our nuclear missile submarines and to keep the north Atlantic shipping lanes open to enable the re-supply of Europe in case of a war with the Soviet Union. Our capabilities were focused on anti-submarine warfare in oceanic environments, and large numbers of frigates and destroyers, long-range patrol aircraft and attack submarines were required. We were prepared to fight a large-scale symmetrical war against an enemy with similar equipment to ours, operating in a similar manner to ours.

That picture has changed dramatically. The Soviet Union has disappeared, and no other comparable threat has emerged to take its place, be that on land, in the air or at sea. However, as the House is very much aware, we now live in a much more unstable world. Terrorism, religious extremism, increased competition for resources, the impact of climate change and demographic shifts can lead—and have led—to crisis, confrontation and conflict. We have seen the consequence of that in recent years, be that in the Balkans, the Gulf, Afghanistan or Sierra Leone. Increasingly, we are facing asymmetric threats and our enemies are not operating with similar technologies, tactics, or constraints. That forms part of the evolving scenario that we must address. What does that mean for the Royal Navy?

Dr. Fox: The Minister is quite right that the response to the end of the cold war and the diminishing Soviet threat was that which came from “Options for Change”. However, the logic of that needs to be extended. If he thinks that the size of the Royal Navy should somehow reflect the size of the surface-fleet threat posed by other countries, and if Russia goes ahead with its rearmament programme and funds that through to 2015 with an increase in its surface fleet, what does he believe that the correct response should be?

Mr. Ingram: The hon. Gentleman almost seems to be concluding—in part, he is totally concluding—that that would be a hostile posture. He seems to forget that at all times, through NATO and other points of contact, we try to bring Russia into some of our joint planning and joint responses. I think that the implication of what the hon. Gentleman says is that what Russia is doing—it is expanding—will be hostile, but the reality is that anything that is happening anywhere in the world could prove to be of a hostile nature, or less hostile, or even benign. These are evolving situations. We must try to plan and understand and then execute as best we can to address evolving threats. That will never be easy because of the lead times that must be adopted for any procurement stream, which has always been an ongoing consideration in defence planning and defence response.


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Over recent years, the Royal Navy has transformed itself to meet the new global challenges that we have discussed. The range of capabilities that the Royal Navy deploys meets its requirement for adaptable, resilient and battle-winning equipment that is manned by well- trained and highly motivated people. That requires an investment in new capabilities, which involve new equipment, training, and an experience of joint operations. The Government have invested heavily in new platforms for the naval service. As I pointed out when I quoted the First Sea Lord, we have introduced 28 vessels to service since 1997, which is not an inconsiderable contribution to naval strength.

Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): I declare an interest as a member of the Rayleigh branch of the Royal Naval Association. The Minister might recall that I warned in the previous Parliament against the decision to withdraw the Sea Harriers, which was touched on again today by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood). Given that the Sea Harriers have been withdrawn, that the carriers are delayed, that the Type 45s are delayed, and that the Type 42s are being withdrawn from service, how do Ministers intend to maintain the integrity of the air defence of the fleet until the new carriers are available?

Mr. Ingram: The situation has not changed since the hon. Gentleman was last given the answers to his questions. I find it interesting that people keep returning to the subject of the Sea Harriers; it is almost as if they forget or ignore the realities of the upgrade programme for those aircraft. There was no certainty that a technical solution would be found that would enable us to upgrade the aircraft in the right time scale and at the right cost. The cost was considerable—it was in the region of £500 million—and a judgment was made by the military planners.

I distinctly remember calling in the military planners who were making the recommendation to Ministers, and they had a good knowledge of the capacity of the Sea Harriers and the need for a layered defence. I asked them whether the step that we were taking was a step too far, and their answer was no, so the military advice that I received was of a nature that allowed me to have confidence. Yes, there was a risk, and we have said that we identified that risk, but we also said that any embarked fleet would be multinational and would give us the benefit of working alongside our allies, and that there would be a period in which we built up capacity. That remains the situation. Once the Type 45 destroyers and their new equipment are introduced, they will probably be the best in the world—I would say the best in the world, in terms of their air defence capacity.

Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP) rose—

Mr. Ingram: The Scottish navy is coming to the rescue.

Angus Robertson: I am grateful for the opportunity to ask the Minister a serious question about the interoperability of the maritime reconnaissance fleet, the Royal Navy and other services. This is the first opportunity that the Minister has had to update the House on the circumstances surrounding the grounding of the maritime reconnaissance fleet. Will he tell the House whether the checks on the Nimrod aircraft have been completed, and whether they are all safe to fly?


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Mr. Ingram: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a precise answer, because the checks are ongoing, but I will say—he should know this, given the area that he represents—that the engineering input will be of the highest standard. The assessment of the risk presented by anything in any piece of equipment, whether for use in the air or elsewhere, has to be of the highest rigour, too. If there is cause to say that something should not be flying, sailing, or travelling on the land, the judgment will be made on a military and technical basis. The one thing that military personnel will not do is take risks with their own people, where those risks are clearly identifiable and can be dealt with. The analysis is ongoing, and it is to the credit of the RAF that it has identified the problem, acted quickly, and responded in a constructive way. We are talking about important air-maritime support equipment that is essential to what we are doing, not just in defence of our shores, but elsewhere.

Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Minister tell us when the order will be placed for the two new carriers that the Navy so desperately wants?

Mr. Ingram: If the right hon. Gentleman participated in defence debates more, he would understand—

Mr. Ellwood: He knows!

Mr. Ingram: If I had the answer today, I would love to announce it from the Dispatch Box. We have moved through the phases of developing and maturing the procurement process for the aircraft carriers. When we get everything into the right position—that requires industry to play its part—we will make the announcement. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) served in Tory Governments who had disastrous procurement programmes, and we are having to resolve the problems that were caused. He should ask himself why he did not get it right when he was in government, instead of criticising us for getting it right on this occasion.

Mr. Ellwood: The Minister should not mock my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) for asking the question. We will continue to ask it, because we never get a straight answer on when the carriers will be introduced. To return to the fundamental issue of the Sea Harriers, the radar of the Type 45s will be limited to the horizon. The point of the Sea Harriers is that their radar perspective goes far beyond the horizon. By removing the Sea Harriers, we weaken the entire fleet, because we do not have the protection that is needed so vitally. There is no indication whatever that we are anywhere near procuring the joint strike fighter aircraft, let alone the carriers for which we have pressed.

Mr. Ingram: I have given answer upon answer about the Sea Harriers, which had to be upgraded so that they still had their sea legs, as it were. They needed another engine, and investment was required. People forget that a big technical issue was involved that could not be easily resolved without costs or an adverse impact elsewhere on the budget. It was a military decision. I have set out the background, and the surety that I required as a Defence Minister was part of the
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decision-making chain and what we were doing at that point in time. We have never said that what we are doing is risk-free. That is the nature of what will happen if we embark with our own fleet in certain circumstances, but we do not envisage that happening.

Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): As a Member from a shipbuilding constituency, I am obviously keen that the order for the carriers should be placed as soon as possible, but may I urge the Minister not to make the mistake that the previous Government made, particularly with Nimrod and Astute? The Conservatives placed orders before the projects were properly de-risked, so there was an enormous overrun in costs and time. I urge the Minister to make sure that the progress of the aircraft carrier orders is as quick as possible, commensurate with making sure that it is properly planned and scheduled before it goes through the main gate.

Mr. Ingram: I can give my hon. Friend an absolute guarantee: that is precisely what we seek to do. I know that he has actively represented his constituency’s interests, as it is crucial for the Clyde, and, indeed, Scotland and the United Kingdom, that those ships be delivered. They will be delivered: we remain firmly committed to the aircraft carriers, and we are working towards that conclusion.

Mr. Streeter: rose—

Mr. Ingram: I am going to make some progress.

We are already in the middle of a major warship- building programme—the largest that the country has seen for many years. It will ensure that the Navy retains the cutting edge that it needs to fulfil its role, today and tomorrow, with ships that are suited to the challenges that we face. Two excellent examples are the new and highly capable amphibious assault and landing ships of the Albion and Bay classes, which provide a massive increase in amphibious lift over their predecessors, and demonstrate our commitment to providing the Navy with the appropriate tools to do its job. They improve the ability of Britain’s armed forces to take action in areas easily accessible by air or where there is no friendly adjacent host nation.

Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Ingram: No, I am going to make progress.

Key to the future delivery of expeditionary capability for the next 40 to 50 years is the carrier strike programme. The joint strike fighter that will operate from the two aircraft carriers will provide unrivalled ability to project enduring military capability deep inland from the safety of the sea. An important milestone was passed just before Christmas, when we signed a memorandum of understanding with the United States that sets out the framework for further design and development work on the aircraft. We continue to negotiate with the alliance before making our main investment decision on the procurement of the ships that we have been discussing. We have put those joint adaptable capabilities to excellent use. The naval service was at the forefront in the early stages of
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Operation Telic, when 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines, supported by amphibious forces in the northern Gulf, led the assault on the al-Faw peninsula, thus securing access to the southern oilfields.

Today, those same Royal Marines are engaged in difficult operations in Helmand province. They were supported until January this year by 800 Naval Air Squadron, which provided close air support in Harrier aircraft. Many more naval personnel are engaged in medical, logistics support and other vital functions at headquarters. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced earlier, we intend to deploy four more Royal Navy Sea King helicopters to Afghanistan. In Iraq, we continue to maintain a presence in the northern Gulf, which is part of the coalition effort to protect the oil terminals through which flows over 80 per cent. of Iraq’s gross domestic product—foreign money that the country desperately needs to develop and flourish. We are the lead nation, too, in training the fledgling Iraqi navy to do that vital task itself.

Further north, Sea King aircraft from 845 and 846 Naval Air Squadrons continue to provide half of the support helicopter force in Iraq. The Royal Navy regularly maintains a ship off the Horn of Africa, too, in coalition anti-terrorist operations, and a senior RN officer currently commands that joint force. The Navy is operational not just in those two theatres. It may not feature in the news regularly, but it deploys ships, aircraft and submarines all over the world in various operations. These include counter-narcotics work in the Caribbean and off west Africa. In the past 16 months, Royal Navy ships and aircraft have seized 24 tonnes of cocaine, with a street value of around £1.5 billion. At this point I should like to comment on the superb role played by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service in support of Royal Navy operations.

Mr. Streeter: We are all very proud indeed of the performance of our Royal Navy all over the world, wherever it is. The Minister will know that in the Navy town, so to speak, of Plymouth, there is a great deal of uncertainty hanging in the air since his announcement of the naval base review. When is that review likely to be decided upon and announced? In relation to procurement, what is happening, please, about the ownership of Devonport Management Ltd? Can he say a word about that?

Mr. Ingram: I intend to cover that towards the end of my remarks.

I am setting out what our Navy does because there have been many comments implying that the Royal Navy is broken and unable to deliver. The argument was advanced by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) when he opened the debate, and we will probably hear more in the course of the debate. I shall set out the scale, the range and the quality of what our people do in the Royal Navy.


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