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The House divided: Ayes 391, Noes 111.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, Danny
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clark, Greg
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Conway, Derek
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hanson, Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunter, Mark
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kramer, Susan
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Maples, Mr. John
Marris, Rob
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penrose, John
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salmond, Mr. Alex
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Stanley, rh Sir John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tony Cunningham and
Huw Irranca-Davies
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Gray, Mr. James
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hendry, Charles
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Horam, Mr. John
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Neill, Robert
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walker, Mr. Charles
Walter, Mr. Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Ann Winterton and
Philip Davies
Question accordingly agreed to.
That this House is of the opinion that the remaining retained places for peers whose membership is based on the hereditary principle should be removed.
Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The first vote tonight was on whether the House wanted to continue with a bicameral Parliament, and many of us voted aye on the basis that the House of Lords is as it is now. If we are to be offered a House of Lords that is either wholly or largely elected, some of us might vote the opposite way. Could we please be given that opportunity?
Mr. Speaker: I do not want to be drawn into that matter.
Mr. Clelland: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House has made a clear decision on an issue that was not included in the manifestos of any of the political parties at the last election. Would you expect the Leader of the House now to come to the House with proposals for a referendum, so that the people of this country can make a decision as to whether they agree with that decision?
Mr. Speaker: I will leave these matters to the Leader of the House.
Mrs. May: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given that in the votes that we have just had, the House has passed two motions for reform of the House of Lords, neither of which was Government policy, and given that the Government’s policy for a 50:50 split in the House of Lords actually received the smallest number of votes of any of the votes that we have taken, will the Leader of the House be making a statement to this House about where the Government intend to take this issue now?
Mr. Straw: I am delighted to make a statement. Let me say to the Leader of the House—[Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] As well as speaking to myself, let me say to the shadow Leader of the House that she has departed from the normal ecumenical spirit of generosity that she has adopted previously, because the truth is that if she and I and the Liberals had not worked very hard on this, we would never have delivered what is a very positive vote for change—fundamental change—in the way that we order the other place. I am delighted, both by the results and by the fact that at long last this House has come to a very clear decision.
The other place will be discussing this issue next week. I think it is fully accepted on both sides that we are right to take our time to consider the views of the other place. Meanwhile, I shall make arrangements to recall the cross-party working group, and at an appropriate moment after discussions in that group I shall of course make a statement to this House.
Simon Hughes:
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I pay tribute to the Leader of the House, who has always made it clear that this was to be a decision for the House of Commons. The House of Commons has not just made a decision; it has made a very clear decision. I am grateful for the indication that there will be further discussion between all the parties in this House as to how we take it forward. I am
grateful for the indication that we should communicate our view clearly to the other place. May I ask that we have, before the end of this Session, a commitment by the Government that in the next Session of Parliament they will proceed to implement the decision made by the House of Commons tonight?
Mr. Straw: I think it is slightly premature to invite me to announce an element of the Queen’s Speech at this stage; one step at a time. But I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I repeat the compliment to him. I have always made it clear that the purpose of this process was to test and then to obtain the opinion of this House. We have done so, and I am delighted that I voted in favour of one of the two options that was approved by an overwhelming majority.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the House will recall that in the original cross-party discussions he felt that the balance of opinion and temperature was for a 50:50 split. Can we now therefore assume that these new discussions will include some of the minority parties in this House, whose feelings on this matter seem to be more reflective of the votes we have just cast than the Leader of the House thought in the original, restrictive discussions?
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall a point of order that I raised on a previous occasion, namely that when a Government Minister rises on a point of order, it is within the discretion of the Chair to treat it as a statement in respect of which he can be asked questions. The Leader of the House has now risen to his feet twice; indeed, he said that he was making a statement. Given that, would you permit hon. and right hon. Members to ask questions?
Mr. Speaker: At the moment, these are still points of order. I allowed the Leader of the House to speak further to the points of order so that he could provide clarity to the House. Business questions are tomorrow and I am sure that hon. Members will have the ingenuity to put questions on this issue to the Leader of the House then.
Sir Patrick Cormack: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the House has voted to abolish the House of Lords —[ Interruption. ] The House has voted to abolish the present second Chamber and replace it with something else. As that would be the most important constitutional change since about 1650, may we have an assurance from the Leader of the House—if he wishes to speak further to this point of order—that any legislation will be taken on the Floor of the House and will not be timetabled?
Mr. Speaker: We are now getting into a debate about how this matter will be handled. There will be opportunities to question the Leader of the House and that can start tomorrow. It would be inappropriate to have a debate this evening about how to proceed.
Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek clarification. Two of the motions on the composition of the other place were carried. One of them was carried by an absolute majority of Members and the other by a smaller majority. Which of those motions will be taken forward as the most important?
Mr. Speaker: I cannot read the thoughts of the Leader of the House at this stage.
Mr. Leigh: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Although the Leader of the House may come to the House tomorrow, the results will be widely reported and it would be useful for him to explain his view of the settled will of the House. Is it an entirely elected Chamber or an 80:20 split? We should know now.
Mr. Speaker: Well, I must now put an end to this matter—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I can tell the Leader of the House to sit down in the same way as I tell other hon. Members to do so. We have this evening to reflect on the decision and the House will be able to question the Leader of the House tomorrow—
Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the House does not intend to remain seated, so I will let him speak as that may help the House on this matter.
Mr. Straw: I rise to put on record information that I have communicated already to the shadow Leader of the House, the leader of the Liberal Democrats and the Clerk, which is that I cannot be here tomorrow. I sent a letter to that effect two weeks ago. My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House will handle business and I will be here the following week.
I say to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) that I will arrange some discussions with the smaller parties in the House. On the bigger questions, we will listen to what the other place says. We have always said that, especially to those who have argued for no change. We will listen, as is our duty, and then we will discuss the next steps in the cross-party group.
Mr. Speaker: I shall now move on to the next business.
DELEGATED LEGISLATION
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Delegated Legislation Committees),
That the draft Budget (Northern Ireland) Order 2007, which was laid before this House on 25th January, be approved. —[Mr. Watts.]
Mr. Speaker: For the convenience of the House, I shall put the questions on motions 14 to 18 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Delegated Legislation Committees),
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