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The House having divided: Ayes 213, Noes 284.
Division No. 97]
[7.1 pm



AYES


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brake, Tom
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Goldsworthy, Julia
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John

Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Mark Lancaster and
Mr. Robert Goodwill
NOES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie

Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clark, Ms Katy
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona

McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil

Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:

Tony Cunningham and
Mr. Frank Roy
Question accordingly negatived.
24 Apr 2007 : Column 851

24 Apr 2007 : Column 852

24 Apr 2007 : Column 853

24 Apr 2007 : Column 854

Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.

Resolved,


24 Apr 2007 : Column 855

Local Government

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I must inform the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister and that there will be a 10-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches in the debate. Will hon. Members who are not staying for the debate please leave the Chamber quickly and quietly?

7.17 pm

Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I beg to move,

Just over a month has passed since Sir Michael Lyons published his report on local government finance. In the absence of Government time to debate its contents and implications for local government, I am pleased that we have that opportunity today.

I agree with this much of the Government amendment: there has been a

I put that down to the rise in the number of Conservative councillors from 4,550 in 1997 to 8,529 in 2007 and to the rise in the number of Conservative-controlled councils from just 24 in 1997 to 167 today. Had the amendment finished there, I would have been tempted to support it.

Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): I note that the motion condemns changes to rubbish collections. However, no doubt the hon. Lady is aware that 61 Conservative-controlled councils have introduced fortnightly rubbish collections, presumably as a worthy attempt to increase recycling. Is she condemning them?

Mrs. Spelman: I will come to that subject. However, I should share with the hon. Lady the fact that, unfortunately, we need to be careful about the information that the Government publish on that subject. A parliamentary answer that I received listing the councils that had moved to fortnightly collections cited a number of councils that have not done that, including King’s Lynn and West Norfolk borough council and Ashford borough council, which have no plans to do so. She might like to talk to Government Departments about the accuracy of the information that they provide.

I commend Sir Michael for the tenacity and rigour with which he carried out the review. There are elements of the report with which we strongly disagree, which I shall come to shortly, but I shall start with those aspects that we welcome.


24 Apr 2007 : Column 856

We welcome the recommendations for more transparency in the way in which Whitehall funds local government; that is something for which we have long been calling. Likewise, we have long supported giving communities the final say on the type of leadership structure that they have. It makes perfect sense to give local authorities greater involvement in health and well-being—indeed, some councils such as Kent county council already have that greater involvement.

The main focus of Sir Michael’s work was the thorny issue of local government finance. One of the first things he did was dismiss local income tax as a viable alternative. For me, the most telling line in the report is the one in which he said that a local income tax

He also set out why a local income tax would not necessarily be a fairer tax: it is because income is not always the sole determinant of wealth. Those are failings that Members of all parties have acknowledged, including the Liberal Democrats.

It is a symptom of how controversial local government finance has become that the Government tried so hard for so long to bury the report. The review took nearly three years, had a wage bill of more than £300,000 and was subject to numerous changes in remit, but the final indignity was that the Chancellor tried to bury its publication on the day of the Budget. He wanted to bury the report because he knew that it would confirm people’s worst fears about the tax-raising appetite of the Treasury.

Surely Ministers know that there is real, palpable fury out there about the level of the council tax. No matter what Ministers say publicly, they know that responsibility for a 92 per cent. rise lies firmly at the door of the Treasury. People who paid just £57 each month on a band D property in 1997 are now paying £110. Taxation in any form is never popular, but if council tax was a mild irritation in 1997, it has become a gaping sore today.

Mr. Ian Austin (Dudley, North) (Lab): One of the local authorities controlled by the hon. Lady’s party is Dudley metropolitan borough council, which serves part of the area that I represent. Dudley council has received record resources under the Labour Government and this year its settlement is above the average for metropolitan authorities, yet it is still increasing the council tax by 5 per cent. while cutting services. It is closing swimming baths and cutting services for the elderly; it is even cutting school transport for special needs schoolchildren. Is that what the Conservatives mean when they talk about the proceeds of growth? Will she condemn the record of Dudley council, which is receiving record resources and cutting services?

Mrs. Spelman: It was hardly worth giving way for that rather lengthy intervention. If the hon. Gentleman waits, perhaps he will come to understand better just how many burdens have been placed on councils such as Dudley council and how shortfalls in NHS funding have put huge pressure on local councils. I shall address those points further later in my speech.

It defies belief that the Government thought that the 92 per cent. rise in council tax would go unnoticed.
24 Apr 2007 : Column 857
Ironically, council tax is the most visible of all tax bills. It is not deducted automatically at the point of income or added automatically at the point of sale. It is worth noting that if council tax rises were commuted into income tax, it would be equivalent to a 4p rise.

We now know that there are plenty of people who are prepared not to pay, and plenty more who simply cannot pay. The only solution that the Government offer those who cannot pay is an application form for so-called benefits. The application form is 40 pages of intrusive questions that actively deter a proud generation of pensioners who find the term “benefits” an indignity. As Sir Michael Lyons himself says,

In the words of Age Concern,

I am not cynical, but I do wonder whether it suits the Treasury to have such a low uptake. What a way to treat pensioners. Not only is the Chancellor complicit in the collapse of people’s pensions, but a third of the increase in the state pension is now clawed back by the Treasury through increased council tax, yet instead of finding ways of reducing the tax burden, the Government are considering recovering council tax after people have died. A typical pensioner drawn into that macabre “pay later” scheme could leave a debt of as much as £64,000 after 20 years.

Pensioners and people on fixed incomes are not the only ones suffering. Hard-working families all have to budget hard for a council tax bill that escalates every year. In fact, we are now so conditioned to accept inflation-busting rises that the Government congratulate themselves if rises of less than 5 per cent. are introduced.

Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): Is the hon. Lady’s main complaint that the Government have not changed the council tax benefit system sufficiently since her party introduced it at the beginning of the 1990s? If so, what specific proposals does she have to reform the council tax benefit system to remove all the problems that she is talking about?

Mrs. Spelman: I have been an MP for 10 years, and in all that time the hon. Gentleman’s party has been in office. I have heard the Government say repeatedly that they want to improve council tax benefit and I have seen constant hand-wringing, yet I still see no real progress. The Age Concern figures confirm that. Sir Michael Lyons makes a good point: the very word “benefit” is off-putting. The hon. Gentleman’s party, which is in government, commissioned that mighty report; it is for Government Ministers to answer the questions that he puts to me.


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