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Susan Kramer: Just to reinforce a point, I lived for 18 years in Chicago, so I am probably one of the few people here who has had three acquaintances murdered, and had a gun put to the head. My general advice for both Labour and Conservative Members would be not to exaggerate.
Ms Buck: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It is certainly true that we can and should always learn from good practice in other areas, including other countries, and constantly refine and evaluate what we do in order to improve. Police numbers and police resources—and, indeed, the machinery of criminal justice and enforcement processes—are only one part of the story, as the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs acknowledged. In New York, demographic change had an impact, though we can disagree about the extent. Demographic changes have an impact here too. London is a growing city, and it is becoming a younger city, which has an impact, as do other social changes. Sadly, economic growth tends to equate with certain levels of violent crime, often because people drink more and alcohol-fuelled crime can rise in those circumstances. In recessions, certain kinds of property crimes have a tendency to increase. All those factors have to be taken into consideration.
Our experience since 2004-05 tells us that neighbourhood policing works. Westminster has 25 neighbourhood police teams, and my experience is that that can be equated with a significant fall in crime. I congratulate all the police working in Westminster on their very real achievements, including a 7 per cent. drop in recorded offences in the past year alone. That feeds into a welcome sense among members of the public that their neighbourhoods are getting safer. A major piece of research carried out by the neighbourhood police in the Harrow road ward, one of the more deprived wards in my constituency, found that 80 per cent. of those questioned said that there had been “a noticeable drop” in crime since the introduction of that team and of the crime-fighting family of neighbourhood wardens and neighbourhood police. That is exactly what we want.
People have a tendency not to believe statistics, regardless of their source. They want to see visible policing and they want to know through word of mouth that there has been a change in their community, and all of those things are undoubtedly flowing from the introduction of neighbourhood policing. People’s perception of crime—and their willingness to believe that their streets are safer—is an important end in itself. It is a long way from being where we would ideally like it to be, but it is certainly improving.
The improvements in neighbourhood policing and the significant reduction in people’s chances of being a victim of crime have been secured with, rather than against, the communities in which they are happening. We should not understate the importance of that. We all know that assertive policing and the use of stop and search have their place as tools of effective policing, but strong personal relationships, a good understanding of the community, the ability of the police to recognise people—especially young people—and know them by name, and good community intelligence have an even more important role. Those things cannot be achieved in a year or two years, but they are undoubtedly happening. I see it for myself on the streets and I very much welcome it.
That is also partly a reflection of the increase in the number of black and minority ethnic officers in the police and among PCSOs. Such appointments are sometimes decried as being a form of political correctness, but the reverse is true. They are essential to achieving policing by consent in communities. One in five police trainees at Hendon are now from black and minority ethnic communities, compared with one in 17 five years ago, and the safer neighbourhood teams reflect the communities in which they operate even more than the general police service. That is absolutely marvellous.
We would still like to see some improvements, however, many of which I am sure would attract cross-party support, although they would not be resource-free. The members of the public who talk to me and respond to local surveys say that they want to see neighbourhood police teams patrolling later into the evening—that is one of the most important things—and very early in the morning. The Prince of Wales junction in my community has a serious problem with drugs and antisocial behaviour. My hon. Friend the Minister visited the area when he came to inspect the neighbourhood policing in my constituency a few months ago, and I am grateful to him for that. The early morning drug dealing, between 5 and 6 o’clock in the morning, is a real problem. It is recognised by the residents, but the way in which the police teams are structured at the moment does not always allow them to respond to it.
Another common complaint, which was highlighted in a recent survey, is the answering of the phone by the police. We need to bear down more effectively on the level of responsiveness. Neighbourhood police teams giving out their mobile numbers works very effectively and is hugely welcome, but when people ring their local police station—not in an emergency, but as part of their involvement in tackling antisocial behaviour and identifying patterns of drug use, for example—they want to know that their calls will be answered.
I want finally to talk about children. There is no doubt that the experience of children as victims of crime—and, to a certain extent, as perpetrators—is beginning to be recognised, as we have seen from the high-profile media debate over recent months. However, it is not properly recognised either in statistics or in its implications for public policy. Two teenagers, Kodjo Yenga and Jevon Henry, have been knifed to death in my constituency in the past few weeks. Although the statistics do not appear to show that knife and gun crimes are worsening overall, people’s perceptions are somewhat different. One in three Londoners believe that knife crime is at an all-time high. That perception is a worry, and young people in particular are picking up that perception. Tragically, the fear of crime is driving too many of them to carry weapons in the misguided belief that it is all about self-defence. Others carry weapons in the misguided belief that it confers status in a respect culture.
We need to do a great deal more to understand why young people behave in this way. I do not think that we will ever know the extent to which the situation has changed. Many people talk about their childhoods in tougher areas 30 or 40 years ago, and say that everyone used to carry a knife at that time. We cannot say with absolute confidence that society or childhood are more violent than they were, but there is undoubtedly a perception that that is the case.
Intelligence-led stop and search is incredibly important in this context, as are enforcement and punishment, but the real issue is to understand why young people are vulnerable to being drawn into the gang culture and into carrying and using weapons. The projects that work with young people, including Working with Men, Boyhood to Manhood, and Kids Company—the most famous example—are doing stunning work, but it has to be recognised that they do not reach one in 200 of the communities that they need to reach. We have already heard about the extent to which local authorities are putting resources into policing, but my worry is that the voluntary and community projects that work with young people are vulnerable to reductions in local authority spending, despite the fact that they play an important preventive role.
The prevention agenda is not a soft option. People sometimes say that youth clubs, sports and so on are a soft option and that the way to deal with youth crime involves tougher sentencing and more prison places—
Nick Herbert: That is what the Prime Minister says now.
Ms Buck: I do not always agree with my Prime Minister. The truth is, however, that he and this Government have put all the investment into the expansion of these services, so let us look at records rather than take words out of context.
In Westminster, we have taken an integrated approach involving the police, the sports unit, the youth service, Positive Futures and the use of Government money to establish a significantly improved level of youth and sporting activity. Last summer, the summer action programme—with support from Positive Futures—recorded a 50 per cent. drop in youth crime during the time in which it was operating. At Easter, we ran a Unity in the Community football tournament that took 500 young people, most of whom were not involved in any formal activities, off the street and into a football programme. The police teams said that they spent the entire weekend patrolling the streets but could not find any young people. Why? Because they were all engaged in activities that are not always on offer.
So, when people say that this is a soft way of approaching crime, let us look at the statistics. When we provide these services, we get young people off the streets and the estates and youth crime falls. That is something that every local authority needs seriously to consider, because the level of provision is not only patchy at the moment but highly vulnerable to the financial pressures that we are now facing.
2.20 pm
Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I join the Minister and the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) in congratulating the Metropolitan police, the City of London police and the British Transport police. I was especially pleased that the Minister mentioned the specials, because their work in our communities, such as going out on patrol at uncivilised hours of the night and handling community events, is absolutely vital. The boroughs of Richmond and Kingston, in which my constituency lies, would not be able to function without them. I am glad that they got a tribute, as they are often overlooked.
I also echo the Minister’s comments about safer neighbourhood teams, which are the crown jewel of London policing. I say that with particular pleasure, which I shall explain in a moment. For a period, however, the safer neighbourhood teams were not fully staffed—they were officially rolled out, but manned by one, two or three people, rather than being up to proper strength. There was a genuine risk of creating a great sense of disillusion within communities, because the teams were not visible or able to carry out the necessary tasks. It is an enormous relief that this year, finally, the teams have been rolled out at full strength, pretty much across London—I hope that I am not leaving out anywhere that has yet to get a full-strength team—which is essential.
Mr. Khan: Will the hon. Lady congratulate the Mayor on rolling out the teams one year ahead of the original plan? As she is well aware, the original plan was to roll them out in April 2008.
Susan Kramer: As the hon. Gentleman should know, I will be delighted when all the teams have been rolled out. I did criticise the Mayor, however, for the promise that they would be rolled out sooner than actually happened. In the first few years, all those teams were promised, but they did not transpire. I am therefore glad that the Mayor has caught up.
In relation to safer neighbourhood teams, visibility on the beat is critical. In community after community, however, there is still a desire to see traditional police out on the beat. It is crucial that safer neighbourhood teams do not become the only contact that the police service has with people in the community. The policing role should not be obscured, and pressure on resources has moved it off the agenda at the moment. I suspect that that is not a positive development in the long term.
Justine Greening: The hon. Lady has raised an interesting point. The danger with the safer neighbourhood team model is that most of the uniformed officers out on the streets will not be able to arrest anyone. Half of them are police community support officers anyway, and arresting officers go back to the police station the minute that they arrest someone, and spend the rest of their shift there. Is there not a danger that people will start to see uniformed officers as not having the powers that they would like them to have?
Susan Kramer: As long as the hon. Lady accepts that PCSOs have an important role, and that their visibility and presence on the street are hugely important, I will agree that the other aspect is also necessary, which was my point about resource. PCSOs establish a relationship with youngsters, and that is crucial in heading off crime. In my community, PCSOs interconnect with small shops and businesses, so that an alert is given if shoplifting or other activities are happening. That has had a visible impact on the sense of security in those shops and among shoppers who gather continuously in Kingston, Richmond or some of the smaller shopping parades, where PCSOs are constantly available.
Safer neighbourhood teams also have the time to play a crucial role in encouraging many of our older citizens to take steps to become more secure, for example, by installing better locks. In that area, I also
congratulate the Metropolitan police on managing to increase the representation of people from the black and minority ethnic community to a more respectable level: about 21 per cent. Relationships cannot be created unless the faces that people see represent a cross-section of the whole London community. Over time, such relationships, by creating confidence in the policing authorities, can begin to help penetrate the gang culture and other underlying problems.
Even on the anti-terrorism front, safer neighbourhood teams have contributed a great deal. Immediately after 7/7, politicians dashed down to my local mosque on the first Friday to make it clear that we did not regard people going to the mosque as somehow alien. We wanted to be there in case anything untoward happened, and the safer neighbourhood teams were there too. Safer neighbourhood teams continue to be there regularly on Fridays to get the message across that everyone in the community has the protection of the police and policing services. That has been terribly important in maintaining, certainly in Kingston and Richmond, a positive feeling across the many different ethnic groups.
Simon Hughes: I endorse everything that my hon. Friend has said about safer neighbourhood teams. She, I and many others have argued for that model over the years. In relation to the point made by the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening), the solution to the problem of losing police officers from the beat, and just having community support officers, is modern technology. That technology will deal with the processes that result in police officers having to go back to the police station for the rest of their shift.
Susan Kramer: I fully agree with my hon. Friend’s comments, and I shall deal with that point later.
There are some general issues that require attention across London, because while I love the safer neighbourhood teams, they are not absolutely perfect. The issues were somewhat addressed by the hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck). Many teams work until midnight and, occasionally, until 2 am. In our culture, however, some of the worst behaviour takes place at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning. Many teams no longer work on Sundays, but in some areas, particularly on sunny Sunday afternoons, that is a time when youngsters who have been out drinking start to get out of control. Flexibility must be part of the future vision, especially as policing numbers have now increased to a reasonably respectable level.
I said that I had some personal satisfaction about the issue of safer neighbourhood teams. Several Members have congratulated the Mayor of London on safer neighbourhood teams and PCSOs, and as the Liberal Democrat candidate for Mayor of London in 2000, a community safety force was part of my platform. On every hustings across London, I got it in the neck from the Independent candidate Ken Livingstone, the Labour candidate Frank Dobson and the Tory candidate—first Jeffrey Archer, until he was arrested, and then Steve Norris—because it was considered a classic, foolish Liberal Democrat notion of policing. We were told constantly that PCSOs were simply police on the cheap. They are not, and I hope that that has
been scotched. We were told that trying to organise a community safety force was nonsensical, and that we did not understand modern-day policing.
Immediately after Ken’s election as Mayor, he came up to me and said—I cannot do his accent—“Susan, I am a magpie, and I’ll ’ave that policy.” Well, I’m very glad that he ’ad that policy, and that it has been a success. We often hear that the Liberal Democrats did not support the idea, but in fact they stood and argued for it at a time when everyone else thought it reasonably daft.
Mr. Slaughter: Perhaps the hon. Lady can be slightly clearer on this point than the Conservative Front Bench. Will she also point out that no Liberal Democrat candidates for seats on the Greater London authority or in local boroughs have ever gone around decrying the increase in the police precept to pay for the wonderful idea that the Mayor has implemented?
Susan Kramer: Ironically, I have never heard of any such candidate doing so. The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) was right: counter-proposals to the Mayor’s budget have typically included more money for policing. Such counter-proposals are usually the result of the two Opposition parties’ joining forces on a single budget: that is the way that the GLA works. In this instance there would have been an extra £20 million for policing, much of it provided through the transport budget.
That was one charge against the Liberal Democrats. There are many others, and Members are well used to hearing them. There is a theory that if a statement is made often enough, no matter how untrue it is, it will eventually stick, and that is one of the statements that falls into the bucket.
Policing on public transport is crucial in London. The British Transport police has been mentioned, and I appreciate what it does, particularly at overground stations and on the overground routes that go through my constituency. However, it should be recognised—here I again give credit to the Mayor—that Transport for London was willing to invest in a transport operational command unit so that more policing resources could be devoted to public transport of every kind, including the underground and buses. I have seen members of the unit working in my constituency when there have been crises. However, there are a number of problems. TOCU tends to work according to a “hot-spotting map” that depends on the reporting of crime and is frequently inaccurate because events are not anticipated. We need to think about where resources are allocated, and the unit’s operation and manning should also be improved.
In October 2006 the Mayor proposed a “transport safer neighbourhood” team, or series of teams. More detail was to follow, but not enough has appeared. Presumably, the aim was to provide a more co-ordinated and coherent safer neighbourhood scheme through intervention in the transport system, but issues have arisen in connection with the scheme’s structure. London has always had a problem because of an inadequate number of sergeants. That was one of the problems with the safer neighbourhood teams, but in the case of the transport teams there is one sergeant to a team of 18. There are problems with the “on the ground” command structure, and there seems to have been no discussion
about how the transport teams will integrate with the safer neighbourhood teams or anyone else. Much conflict and confusion surrounds what seems fundamentally to be a good idea. As with all policing, implementation matters. The idea matters too, of course, but if the implementation is not right, the idea is discredited.
One of the various roles of the transport police is to focus on school letting-out times, which in my community, at any rate, are among the tensest times of the day. There has been much discussion of youth-on-youth crime, and these are the times when it is at its most prevalent. They are also the times when the community feels most under pressure. A group of youngsters who emerge from school, released for the day, may allow their behaviour to become completely out of hand.
The teams have done well, but we have not gone far enough in coping with behaviour of that kind. As others have said, it cannot always be dealt with in the context of policing, and indeed it cannot always be dealt with in the context of schools. On key bus routes there should always be a second person whose primary job is to ensure that there is security on the route. On some bus routes there is a high probability of antisocial behaviour, perhaps on the part of youngsters or perhaps on the part of late-night drunks. Bendy buses are almost an invitation to fare evasion.
Ms Butler: Will the hon. Lady join me in congratulating schools in Brent that have appointed a sort of prefect to go out on the buses during school hours? Young people are, in a way, policing themselves.
Susan Kramer: That sounds an ideal arrangement. As the hon. Lady will know, however, in many parts of London it has not been sufficient. Most ideas have been tried in those areas and have not worked; we need to become more aggressive.
I am very conscious that young people have a terrible reputation which most of them do not deserve. We need to turn that around. One way that we can do so is to focus on, and deal with, trouble times and trouble spots. In certain situations, having a school bus rather than a policing strategy might provide the right answer—for example, having a special bus in circumstances in which many youngsters leave a location to travel to a destination some distance away that is not well served by public transport. Ironically, Transport for London will put on school buses for private schools with strange travel patterns—with pupils who travel unusual journeys. We must look at providing that service for at least one or two key schools in the state sector.
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