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And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Further petitions stand over until immediately before the moving of the motion for the Adjournment.
Before we move to the Bill and I call the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) to continue his speech on the group of amendments for consideration, I remind the House that he has already spoken on them for well over an hour, and I am sure that he is beginning to bring his remarks to a conclusion. In any case, I do not expect him to repeat the arguments that he has already made at great length.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Those of us who were in the No Lobby just a moment ago exercising our vote were disturbed to see a substantial trip hazard. A bucket has been placed in the middle of the Lobby. Is it possible to investigate the matter and to ensure that there is no danger to Members when exercising their vote later in the morning?
Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his concern. I must advise him that I have been made aware of the bucket in the No Lobby and the drip that is the reason for the bucket’s being there in the first place. The matter is already being investigated, and all Members are now fully aware that the bucket is present.
Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Speaker has selected a group of the amendments that were tabled. Could you take time to consider whether we might add two amendments—Nos. 75 and 77—to that group during the day, on the basis that they are on separate matters not dealt with in the group that are absolutely relevant to the parts of the Bill that we will be considering?
Madam Deputy Speaker: I must remind the hon. Gentleman that Mr. Speaker has already made the selection of amendments, and there is no scope now for further amendments to be added.
Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You were giving advice to the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) about the length of his speech. Under what Order of the House are speeches time-limited? I was not aware that the Speaker could limit the length of time that we speak, so I am a little confused as to why you should mention it. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who is an experienced Member of this House, is well aware of the rule about repetition—
tedious repetition. I was merely pointing that out. It is important that we continue the debate—as indeed it is for other Members who perhaps wish to catch my eye during our proceedings.
Mark Fisher: Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I absolutely understand the point about repetition, but it appeared to me that you were saying something about length, rather than repetition.
Madam Deputy Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on what I have said, because I do not think that he really intends to challenge the ruling that I have just made.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Unfortunately, I was unable to obtain a list of the amendments that have been selected for debate today until quite late on. I am a relatively new Member of this House, and some of us —[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I must hear the point of order that the hon. Lady is making.
Lorely Burt: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a relatively new Member, I like to plan what I am going to say, and as my office is in the outer Hebridean equivalent of the parliamentary estate—Norman Shaw North—it is very difficult to do so when one cannot obtain the selection list until just before the debate. Will you investigate the matter and see whether the service for Members can be improved?
Madam Deputy Speaker: The amendments selected by Mr. Speaker were available yesterday, and in the appropriate offices when they opened this morning. They are also available on the internet. I must remind the hon. Lady that if Members have an interest in a particular Bill or motion before the House it is incumbent on them to make the necessary inquiries.
Orders of the Day
Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill
As amended in the Public Bill Committee, further considered.
Exemption of House of Commons and House of Lords
Amendment proposed [20 April]: No. 2, in page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3).— [Norman Baker.]
10.6 am
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I remind the House that with this we are discussing the following amendments:
No. 14, page 1, leave out lines 7 to 12 and insert—
‘(1) For the purposes of section 41(1), information which—
(a) is held only by virtue of being contained in a communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, and a public authority, and
(b) consists of information relating to the personal affairs of a constituent of that member
shall, unless the contrary is indicated, be deemed to have been communicated in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence.’.
No. 40, page 1, leave out lines 7 to 12 and insert—
‘(1) For the purposes of section 41(1), information which—
(a) is held only by virtue of being contained in a communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, or a member of the House of Lords, and a public authority, and
(b) in the case of a member of the House of Commons, consists of information relating to the personal affairs of a constituent of that member,
shall, unless the contrary is indicated, be deemed to have been communicated in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence.’.
No. 10, page 1, line 7, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 and insert—
‘(1) Information is exempt information if—
(a) it is held only by virtue of being contained in any communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, and a public authority, and
(b) it consists of personal data relating to a constituent of that member, and
(c) the constituent has not consented to its disclosure.’.
No. 11, page 1, line 7, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 and insert—
‘(1) Information is exempt information if—
(a) it is held only by virtue of being contained in any communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, and a public authority, and
(i) personal data relating to an individual in connection with whom the member has made representations or enquiries and the individual has not consented to its disclosure, or
(ii) information relating to the personal affairs of a deceased individual.’.
No. 41, page 1, line 7, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 and insert—
‘(1) Information is exempt information if—
(a) it is held only by virtue of being contained in any communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, or a member of the House of Lords, and a public authority, and, in the case of a member of the House of Commons,
(b) it consists of personal data relating to a constituent of that member, and
(c) the constituent has not consented to its disclosure.’.
No. 42, page 1, line 7, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 and insert—
‘(1) Information is exempt information if—
(a) it is held only by virtue of being contained in any communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, or a member of the House of Lords, and a public authority, and
(i) personal data relating to an individual in connection with whom the member has made representations or enquiries and the individual has not consented to its disclosure, or
(ii) information relating to the personal affairs of a deceased individual.’.
No. 12, page 1, line 9, at end insert
‘, except insofar as it relates to any representations which the member has made to the authority in connection with—
(a) any matter of policy which it has adopted or may adopt, or
(b) any decision which it has taken or may take other than a decision expressed in terms which affect only the personal affairs of a particular individual or individuals.’.
No. 24, page 1, line 9, at end insert—
‘(1A) Information is not exempt by virtue of this section if it is—
(a) contained in a communication made to or received from a public authority from whom the member receives any remuneration or benefit, and
(b) relates to that remuneration or benefit whether or not the remuneration or benefit is recorded in the Register of Members’ Interests.’.
No. 44, page 1, line 9, at end insert—
‘(1A) Information is not exempt by virtue of this section if it is contained in any letter between a member of the House of Commons or House of Lords and a Government minister.’.
No. 25, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
‘(3) For the purposes of this section “communication” means a communication in writing, or by electronic means, made by a member to a public authority or by a public authority to a member but does not include a record of a meeting, or of a conversation, between a member and a person or persons acting on behalf of the public authority.’.
No. 26, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
‘(3) This section does not apply to any communication made before the Act comes into force.’.
No. 39, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
‘(3) Information is not exempt by virtue of this section if it is contained in a communication between a member of the House of Commons, acting in his capacity as such, and a public authority, relating to any proposed legislation which was before either House of Parliament at the time of the communication.
(4) In this section, “legislation” means any of the following—
(a) a public general Act or local Act (whether passed before or after the commencement of this section), or
(b) any Order in Council, order, rules, regulations, scheme, warrant, byelaw or other instrument made under an Act referred to in paragraph (a).’.
No. 45, page 1, line 12, at end insert—
‘(3) For the purposes of this section “letter” means a communication in writing, made by a member to a public authority or by a public authority to a member, but does not include—
(a) exclusively electronic means of communication, or
(b) a telex, telegram or facsimile transmission.’.
No. 16, page 1, line 13, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
‘(4) After section 63(1) insert—
“(1A) Information contained in a historical record cannot be exempt information by virtue of section 34A except insofar as it consists of personal data information relating to the personal affairs of a living individual who can be identified from that record or from that record and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the public authority.”’.
No. 36, title, line 2, after second ‘and’, insert ‘certain’.
Norman Baker: I heard your comments of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, a few moments ago and I will abide by them, naturally. It is my intention not to repeat anything that was said on a previous occasion. There are many others—not least on the Liberal Democrat Benches—who wish to contribute to this debate and I am very keen that they be heard.
For the sake of clarity, I have formally moved amendment No. 2, which is the lead amendment in this group. According to column 602 of Hansard of 20 April 2007, I have already done so. I do not believe that I did, but for the avoidance of doubt I do so now and indicate that I wish to divide the House on this crucial amendment, as and when we reach that stage.
I should say how grateful I am to Mr. Speaker for his response to the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) on Wednesday, when he said:
“I am here to defend Back Benchers, and on Friday everyone will get a voice in this Chamber.”—[ Official Report, 16 May 2007; Vol. 460, c. 625.]
That is a splendid statement from Mr. Speaker, and I am very grateful to him for allowing that to be the case.
Mr. Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I am very interested in what the hon. Gentleman, who is speaking from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench this morning, is saying. Can he explain why, when this Bill was in Committee, Liberal Democrat Front Benchers not only did not oppose it or table any amendments to it, but actually supported it?
Norman Baker: I think that you would rule me out of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I re-opened what happened in Committee; I am keen to make progress this morning. In any case and for the sake of clarity, I am not on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench in terms of my role. I am simply sat here geographically, as opposed to that being the result of any appointment process.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. For the avoidance of any misunderstanding, may I remind hon. Members that we are debating the group of amendments to which the lead amendment is No. 2?
Norman Baker: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker; I am trying to.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I seek clarification? The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) said that Liberal Democrat Front Benchers supported the Bill in Committee. I am not quite sure how one supports a Bill at Committee stage, which looks at each clause of a Bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker: I am afraid that that is not a point of order. This is turning into a debate on other business. The business before the House is the group of amendments to which the lead amendment is No. 2. Perhaps we can now all focus any contributions on those amendments.
Norman Baker: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have dealt with amendment No. 2, so I will not—
Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central) (Lab): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He referred to Mr. Speaker’s remarks earlier in the week about everybody having a chance to speak on this Bill. I presume that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that the most important person to be heard today is the Bill’s promoter. This Bill was not debated on Second Reading—
Mark Fisher: May I finish my point, Madam Deputy Speaker? Unfortunately, I was unable to be here for the previous debate on Report stage, but so far as I can see from reading the record carefully, the Bill’s promoter did not speak then. How is this House to consider the Bill when we have not heard the case for it? Indeed, the last time that this Chamber discussed it, not a single person spoke in favour of it. So as yet, there has been no prosecution of the case for why this Bill is important. I hope that the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) agrees with me that one of the voices that should be heard today—and in some detail—is that of the Bill’s promoter. Sadly, the promoter is not in his place; he has left the Chamber.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that I have got the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. If Members care to reflect on the Hansard of the previous debate, they will see just how much time was taken up and given to Members speaking, which perhaps precluded other people from making a contribution. I urge today that we make progress, which is why I made the initial remarks that I did to the hon. Member for Lewes, who was on his feet last time. The debate was adjourned and he is now continuing. I wish to ensure that all Members who wish to contribute get that opportunity —[ Interruption. ] I said all Members.
Norman Baker: I hope that all hon. Members who wish to contribute will get an opportunity to do so, including those in favour of the Bill.
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