| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Gummer:
I will do my best to—indeed I will have to—follow your guidance. I shall turn specifically to illustrate those principles through the details of the amendment. The first few examples in proposed subsection (1A) are intended to ensure that we do not have situations that no one thought about. That is my worry with this type of broad-brush legislation. It is only when one starts discussing it that one wonders what might happen if an owner wanted to occupy a
building, but could not do so because the law stopped him. Unless the Bill states specifically that in those circumstances the owner would not have to pay the tax—which he would be prepared to pay if only the law did not stop him benefiting from the occupancy of the building—I suspect that the regulations will also miss the point. I have often thought that I have had a good answer to some political point, but have then discussed it and discovered that those who come at it from a different direction are able to think of several new and difficult questions.
Mr. Greg Knight: Does my right hon. Friend share my view that new Subsection (1A)(b) is too widely drawn? I shall give him an example. Let us say that a husband and wife jointly occupy a property. The husband assaults the wife and the judge makes an order that by law he is not to return to the property as long as his wife is there. He is then by law prohibited from occupying the property. Why should he escape paying rates?
Mr. Gummer: My right hon. Friend is right to give that example. At the opposite end of the spectrum, if there is no reference to such issues, there is even more likely to be a difficulty. The point is that we need to have the discussion. I suspect that the Minister will not accept the amendment, although I would be pleased if he did so.
The purpose of this House is to have the kind of interplay that we are having. Those in the Box, to whom we are not allowed to refer, will at least be thinking that when they prepare the regulations they will have to get that issue right, although they may not have thought of the point that my right hon. Friend raises. I must confess that I had not thought of it myself.
The next example in paragraph (c) raises similar problems. If the local authority to which the money would be paid has itself stopped the building being occupied, it would be perverse for it also to be able to demand the money from the people who are not able to occupy it. Unless we make that clear, I can think of some local authorities that, either from perversity or by accident, would end up in that position. They would say, “Well, Parliament did not make any reference to this point, so we have decided, given the generality of the rules under which we operate, we are going to charge. So you, Mr. Jones, you can’t use your property, but you’ve got to pay for it.” That would be manifestly unfair, and the possibility ought to be excluded.
I am especially concerned about proposed subsection 1A(2)(d) in the amendment. I declare an interest in advice on planning matters, especially in respect of listed buildings and conservation areas. One problem with the present system is that the time taken to deal with building preservation notices has been extended in recent years. The people involved are extremely pressurised and often have to act precipitately to stop irredeemable and irrevocable changes. That is the nature of that sort of order and it may mean that the time involved is very much longer than what is envisaged in the Bill, with the result that, for good community reasons that the House would favour, people may not be able to enjoy the use of their premises in that period.
Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con):
My right hon. Friend’s excellent speech is dealing in detail and authority with the amendment’s proposals, but does he
agree that proposed paragraph (d) of amendment No. 6 is especially important? I know that he has been devoted to the cause of ensuring that our high streets remain healthy. Is not respect for diversity of provision at the heart of a healthy high street? In Chester, one of our most attractive and historic city centres, commercial enterprises operate out of listed houses or buildings of historical note—
The First Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that interventions should be brief. Will he please conclude his remarks so that the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) can answer?
Michael Gove: Thank you, Mrs. Heal. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, when we are considering empty properties in which commercial activity is going on, it is vital that we should not neglect the built environment and buildings of historic distinction in particular?
Mr. Gummer: My hon. Friend is right. The matter is important for a second reason, which is that historic buildings must have an alternative use if they are to be maintained. Empty historic buildings, and especially the domestic type used for commercial purposes that would be covered by the proposal, do no one any good. In addition, I imagine that there will be more such properties, as wireless technology for example makes it possible to use previously unusable buildings.
I have a problem with proposed subsection (1A)(e) of amendment No. 6, as I am not sufficiently well versed in the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1990 to be able to imagine how many monuments would be caught by the legislation. I suspect that few are rated, but I have done the Minister’s job and he will agree that it is amazing to discover what peculiar things turn out to be rated under our system. I believe that bus shelters can be rated, so it would not surprise me to find out that some monuments would attract a rate. If none are, there would be no need for the proposal in the amendment, but if some are, the proposal becomes very important.
Proposed subsection (1A)(f) is important, if we manage to define “industrial hereditament”. It is interesting that we have retained a word that is more difficult to say after dinner than it is after a sober lunch.
Mr. Woolas: I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman, and remind him that the word no longer means what it did originally.
Mr. Gummer: The Minister is right, but I bet strongly that neither of us could define precisely what it means today, or what it used to mean. That is what makes it such a good legal word.
Proposed paragraph (h) is the most controversial in the amendment. I can see what my hon. Friend the Member for Poole is getting at, but want to offer the following example. A person who finds that his Aunt Agatha has died may not have seen her for some time or realised that he was her executor. He might not find it easy to sell her property because she did not do much with it for a long time. Consequently, her nephew has a lot to do, but the probate system takes such a long time that he might easily find himself paying money out of his own income to cover the circumstances.
2.15 pm
I am at present dealing with a constituent in exactly that situation. There is money in the estate involved, but complications with the will and the nature of the person concerned mean that probate is taking a long time. My constituent therefore has little choice but to meet the financial demands from his own resources.
I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Poole is trying to do, but I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) said earlier about drawing proposals more narrowly. Many properties in this country, domestic and otherwise, are owned by people who do not live in Britain. No one could accuse me of being anti-foreigner, but the people living abroad who own those buildings want to hang on to them because their value is rising all the time. They do not want the hassle involved with letting the properties, so they are not rented out.
That is bad, and why I said earlier that this is a necessary Bill. If the proposal in the amendment is accepted, we need to be careful about how long the period should be. I can see that it might be longer than what we have at present, but I am unhappy about it being as open ended as it is in the amendment.
Mr. Greg Knight: I am not sure that the proposal is all that open ended, as it states that
“the owner is entitled to possession only in his capacity as the personal representative”.
If a deceased person’s personal representative becomes the owner of a property when the estate is wound up, his status under the amendment would change. It is grossly unfair for the state to impose a tax on a person merely because of probate delays caused by the same state.
Mr. Gummer: My right hon. Friend makes a sensible point, but I am worried about the fact that some people may use the delay for their own advantage. If we can find a way to close off that option, I would be pleased but, on balance, I prefer to have the change rather than not.
I turn now to the owner’s estate bankruptcy order and the Insolvency Act 1986. I agree that that is a good Act and that it has clarified matters considerably, but we have reached the crux of the problem. The Government are right to want to ensure that empty properties make a proper contribution to the cost of services, but they must make sure that the provisions do not run counter to other legislation, and bankruptcy is a serious problem in that regard. If people are forced to pay to the state money that would otherwise go to people who have a prior demand, a prior requirement and in my view a prior right, they have a right to feel aggrieved.
I would take it further, as I suggested in an intervention earlier. It is utterly wrong that the state, which can carry these things more adequately, has used its power to make laws to protect itself against the interests of individuals, for whom bankruptcy is a greater disaster. If I am a small business man and someone goes bankrupt, my bills are paid only after the bills owed to the state are paid. I find that unacceptable. The state is able to know how much it is likely to lose over any year and make proper provision. Unlike many individuals, it can carry
that loss because it deals with such a large number of bills. All of us in our constituencies have seen cases of individuals who have suffered considerably as a result of bankruptcy. If we add to that the fact that, before creditors’ bills are paid, the local authority will be able to take money for a property which is empty due to bankruptcy, it would be entirely unfair. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Poole for putting that issue in such a clear way in the amendment.
Proposed new subsection (1A) (j) is just as important. It becomes more important in a sense because the present Government have made arrangements, which I supported, to take a broader attitude to bankruptcy—in the past, we have been too tight about it. The Americans have a better way of looking at it and as a result have been able to create many jobs; unlike us, people there have been prepared to take risks. Under the Government’s arrangements we will have more deeds of arrangement so the subsection becomes the more important.
That is also true of paragraph (k), which seems to complete the trio that covers everyone who might be affected by bankruptcy. I repeat that I am not seeking to support or protect the bankrupt. I am concerned about people who will be affected by a bankruptcy, a deed of arrangement or a winding-up order. The terms of the paragraph would mean that we were not providing circumstances in which the local authority could get its fingers on money that would be more properly used to redeem someone’s debt.
Paragraph (l) relates to the person in his capacity as a liquidator. I am involved in representing a constituent on such a liquidation. The ownership of the property is extremely important to any chance of my constituent getting a reasonable amount of the money that he is owed for medical supplies. His happens to be a very sad case. The fact that he has suffered in one of the longest liquidations in history, mainly as a result of actions taken by the previous Conservative Government, saddens me a great deal. If the liquidator in this hugely difficult process were to pay rates on empty buildings, I doubt whether by now there would be any money left for the people for whom the liquidation technically has taken place.
I use my constituent’s example because, were I in the Minister’s place, I would think that paragraph (l) was not terribly important because in normal circumstances liquidations are relatively quick. Where things are owned abroad, liquidations can take a very long time. Although I am sure that chartered accountants have their uses—sometimes I wonder what they are—there is no doubt that they are not the fastest of people when it comes to liquidations. I hope that the Minister will take the terms of the paragraph seriously because it could have extremely serious results.
In most cases, although the local authority may not be the place where I would put what money remained in anything that amounted to a bankruptcy, the process is likely to be relatively quick. The amount paid to the local authority will not be too dreadful and money will be left for the real creditors. In the very long liquidation to which I have referred, the effect of the Bill could be very serious, so I hope that the Minister will take the amendment seriously.
It is a pity that the Opposition have had to go to the difficulty of producing the list of examples of those things that should be exempted. I am sure that my hon.
Friend the Member for Poole will not mind my saying so, but Oppositions are not professional in terms of such matters. These are matters that civil servants—much maligned under this Government—are very good at handling. If the civil service had produced a list of exemptions for the Bill, many of the issues that we have raised would already have been dealt with. We could have discussed many other issues much more sensibly if the Government had done that work on the exemptions using their powers, opportunities and resources.
In speaking in favour of the amendment, I want to say that it ought to have been significantly better and I am sorry that the Government did not take the opportunity to do the work. By saying that, I do not in any way cast doubt on the work done by my hon. Friend and his colleagues.
The fact that we have produced so many questions in the short time that we have had to prepare the amendment, and after such a lack of consultation, argues for better consultation on such matters. Not only would the terms of the amendment have been improved had they been included in the Bill presented by the Government, but the attitude towards the issue among the public, for whom the amendment will be an effective step, would have been greatly improved.
The amendment is about ensuring that there will be fewer cases of people feeling hard done by by the system under which they labour. That issue above all brings me back, but in order, to the key concerns of principle. Taken together, this series of amendments would ensure that the legislation is seen by the public as fair, reasonable and knowledgeable, not merely thrown at them as so much legislation has been over recent years. Will the Minister be kind enough to take a message—I hope from the House, but certainly from me? One of the problems that has beset his Government is their unwillingness to go through these processes in detail, some may say boring detail, as we have tried to do in this case. They have put on the statute book primary legislation and, I regret, badly thought out secondary legislation and regulation, with the result that people are increasingly unwilling properly to accept Bills such as this one.
The Government are right to introduce the Bill. They are right to rate empty properties and to insist that people contribute to the cost of services. They are right to ensure that all properties are available for use at a time when climate change must be fought at every level. What is wrong is that they have not given the House proper opportunity to debate the real issues—small though they may be—that affect our constituents.
2.30 pm
Mr. Dunne: I support the amendments and I am particularly grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) for concluding his remarks with a complaint about the manner in which the Government chose to introduce the Bill to the House. I remind the Committee that it is the fourth largest revenue-raising measure announced in the Budget, yet it has been dealt with inadequately, as is evident by the scale of the amendment.
The inadequacy lies not least in the amount of time given to the House to consider the measure, which was not part of the Finance Bill, but also in the fact that we
have had no sight of the regulations that might, had they been produced before Committee, have enabled us to consider reducing the scope of the amendment. That is not to say that the proposals are not important in themselves, because they would include exemptions in the Bill rather than leaving them to be introduced under regulation. It is symptomatic of the way in which the Government try to conduct their business that they mask their true intent by not providing regulations in good time, as we are considering the legislation. The Minister looks quizzical—does he want to correct me?
Mr. Woolas: The purpose of the Bill is to change the period; exempt properties are covered by regulations.
Mr. Dunne: That may be so, but why should not the exemptions be clearly set out in the Bill, as we propose in the amendment?
Mr. Gummer: The Minister is being naive. If we change the time, the way in which the legislation will affect the various categories changes, too. If the categories are not in the Bill, or if we do not know what the regulations are beforehand, we cannot defend our constituents against them.
Mr. Dunne: As so often, my right hon. Friend makes his point clearly.
I want to discuss two aspects of the amendment. Other speakers have touched on them, but I want to reinforce my concern that the issues are properly addressed in the measure and in regulation. My first concern relates to proposed subsections (1A)(d) and (e), the exemptions relating to listed buildings and ancient monuments.
I hope that the listed buildings exemptions will be the same in regulations under the Bill as they were in previous regulations. However, as a result of the Government’s efforts to tighten up on the risk to revenue from the deliberate destruction of buildings to make them uninhabitable, I am concerned about the many buildings in our constituencies, which have historical qualities and may be listed, ancient monuments or neither, that need exemption from the empty buildings rating regime. I shall give some constituency examples of ruined castles to illustrate my point.
I live along the Welsh border and the western half of my constituency borders Wales—an area particularly richly endowed with castles that were built originally to mark the boundary between England and Wales and to ensure the protection of English citizens from the marauding Celts. In my constituency there are a number of castles in a state of what can best be described as disrepair. I am thinking, in particular, of Clun castle and Hopton castle, which are both in my constituency, and Wigmore castle and Brampton Bryan castle, which are just outside my constituency, in the valley where I live. Each of those is, in effect, a ruined castle without a roof.
Mr. Greg Knight: I hesitate to venture a small criticism of my hon. Friend, but if he is concerned about those castles—I can understand why—why did he not include them in the list in amendment No. 6, to which he put his name?
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |