Previous Section Index Home Page

There is also the danger of the duplication of roles. In Sudan at present, there is an EU mission with military personnel, and just down the road there is a
21 Jun 2007 : Column 1595
NATO mission doing exactly the same job of reporting back and working with the Sudanese. That is an unnecessary duplication. The Minister squirms but I assure him that that is the case and it must be looked into.

The European Defence Agency—as it is termed—was part of the original EU constitution, and I hope that the Minister will consider that, especially as we did not have an opportunity to vote. An example of the split in interest between what NATO and the European Union are doing is in Afghanistan, where the French are pushing for one system of electronically marking vehicles so that they can be tracked by satellites, but all the other NATO countries want to use another—the blue force tracker system. That is confusing to our personnel, an overlap and a complete waste of money.

The ambassador in Afghanistan, Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, has said that we will be in that country for decades. I am pleased that the Minister is back in his place, because he mentioned the Hip helicopters that were offered to the UK, and the misreporting by the press. I have looked at what was actually reported and it is clear that there was a genuine offer of helicopters for £20 million. It was turned down by the Government. That could have been the right decision, but I tried to ask the Minister earlier—he would not take interventions on the subject—what the cost of replacing those helicopters with Chinooks or other craft would be. If the Soviet-designed models could be used as transport helicopters more cheaply than bringing in operational helicopters, it should have been considered. Had the deal been accepted, it would have freed up Chinooks for combat operations, rather than using them as a taxi service, which is why they are needed in Afghanistan.

Both my hon. Friend the shadow spokesman and the Minister mentioned the medical facilities in Afghanistan. I pay tribute to the medical support that our armed forces receive, but it must be improved. I question why there is a logistical chain stretching from Afghanistan back to the UK, which is duplicated by the German chain, the Italian chain, the Dutch chain and the American chain. Many of the casevacs go through Dubai in any case, where there are excellent medical facilities. If we are operating in Afghanistan under a NATO umbrella, why do we not share the assets and the logistical chains? The problem occurs not only with casevacs, but with avgas and other logistical issues. There is huge duplication and it causes a phenomenal waste of money. I would be grateful if the Minister would look into that.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) commented on the embarrassing fiasco a couple of months ago in the Shatt al-Arab waterway. This is my first opportunity to comment on the report, because many hon. Members were prevented from contributing when the Secretary of State made his statement. The case of the 17 service personnel arrested by the Iranians has been described as not being our finest hour. In fact, it was a deep embarrassment. We became the laughing stock of NATO and the middle east, and I am saddened that the reports have been shrouded in secrecy despite the many schoolboy errors being made very public. Nobody has been sacked, reprimanded or even blamed, and that is astonishing. It raises more questions than it answers. It was not our finest moment, but we should be able to draw a line
21 Jun 2007 : Column 1596
under it by determining the facts and somebody falling on their sword. That is not going to happen, and we will somehow tuck it away and move on as if nothing had happened. That is wrong.

I am rightly proud of serving in our armed forces and I am glad that we are able to debate these issues today. I pay tribute to the work that they do while we sit in the comfort of this Chamber. Again and again, Britain steps up to the plate while other countries shy away. On both sides of the House, we can be proud of the role that we play in the world. However, I do not think that we can keep up the pace of our commitments without dire consequences for our combat effectiveness. I hope that the new Prime Minister will take note.

I fear that this will be the last debate in which we will see some of the faces on the Government Front Bench today. If there is to be a reshuffle in the next couple of weeks, I wish Ministers all the best. This country will be moving into a new chapter with a new Prime Minister, and we will see whether there is a new approach to prioritising the needs of our armed forces.

4.30 pm

Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): May I begin by offering an apology to the House? A long-standing commitment meant that unfortunately I was unable to be here for the opening speeches. For that reason, I am very grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak so that I can raise a constituency matter.

I suspect that the problem about which I wish to speak—the difficulties faced by armed forces personnel leaving the services in finding accommodation and housing—is one that arises in many other constituencies. Obviously, some will have bought properties, and I am pleased that the MOD has found ways to facilitate that and to extend the encouragement given to people to purchase their own homes, but it will not be a viable option for many members of the armed forces.

Armed forces personnel can be stationed anywhere in the country, with the result that they find it difficult to access social housing in their home area. However, their families, roots and connections do not change. One of my Chelmsford constituents was due to retire from the Royal Marines at the start of last year. Before he did so, his mother came to see me about exactly that problem. People who have served in our armed forces and taken part in active operations should be treated as a special case. They have been prepared to put their lives on the line for this country, and they deserve to be given special treatment when it comes to housing provision on leaving the forces. If such people want to be housed in the town or area that was their home before they joined up, they should have that option.

I know that the tri-service regulations provide guidance and help to members of the armed forces and to local authorities, but problems have arisen when councils have not understood or appreciated in full their role in helping retiring service personnel. Indeed, local authorities have treated those people as though they were making themselves deliberately homeless, even though the MOD gives retiring personnel certificates that specify that that is not the case. Some armed forces families have found themselves facing the prospect of being put temporarily
21 Jun 2007 : Column 1597
into hostels or bed and breakfast establishments before more suitable housing is made available. To me, that is wrong.

I wrote to the Minister of State in February or March last year, and I received a response that was helpful, at least in the context of the rules and regulations as they stood at the time. The rules are well intentioned but they do not provide what I wanted: immediate special treatment for retiring members of the armed forces. In addition, the Minister’s response highlighted the problem that many local authorities do not understand the regime or operate the rules as the MOD would like.

Subsequently, I have raised the matter at various times, and did so again at Defence questions on Monday. The Under-Secretary of State for Defence tried to be helpful in response, but he has been more helpful in the letter that I received from him today. I suspect that other hon. Members who have expressed a concern and interest in this matter will have received the same letter, and I welcome the joint statement on the problem issued by him and the Minister for Housing and Planning at the Department for Communities and Local Government. As the statement rightly points out:

However, it makes the important point that not all local authorities fully consider the local connections of armed forces personnel. I do not know how Ministers plan to proceed, but if they were to issue local authorities with guidance, or a reminder about that requirement, it would be extremely welcome, as it could eliminate some of the confusion, or ostrich-like behaviour, of some local authorities.

I welcome the Government’s commitment that pending the outcome of their current review of housing policy they anticipate making proposals “in due course” to enshrine—I assume in legislation—more action to ensure that retiring members of the armed forces get a better deal for housing and social housing, with a local connection where it is relevant. That is important.

Derek Twigg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. Given today’s announcement and my previous statements, there is no excuse for local councils to be in any doubt about our intentions. I am sure that he will agree that Members of Parliament can play a vital role by taking matters up directly with their local authorities and housing associations in their constituencies.

Mr. Burns: I am grateful to the Minister and I assure him that I shall be writing to my local authority to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I wholeheartedly support what the hon. Gentleman, my Essex colleague, is saying. May I use this opportunity to remind my hon. Friend the Minister that he can deliver only for England and Wales? Will he undertake to ensure that the Scottish and Northern Ireland Executives will be able to deliver in terms of housing? The Minister is mumbling or rumbling, and I am not sure whether he is saying that he cannot deliver for Scotland, but the need for social housing in Scotland and Northern Ireland is as great as in England, Wales and Essex.


21 Jun 2007 : Column 1598

Mr. Burns rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I do not think that “mumbling and rumbling” is unparliamentary, but I am sure that the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) will be disappointed if the Minister has not heard what he said.

Mr. Burns: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Thurrock, my colleague from Essex. I hope it is not unparliamentary—or lese-majesty—for me to point out that I was just about to tell him exactly what you said, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister has certainly heard the hon. Gentleman’s important intervention and will no doubt respond to it in his own way in due course.

I do not want to push my luck, but I should like to refer again to the statement, which I warmly welcome. It says:

On the face of it, that is welcome but, quite apart from the armed forces context, the application process for social housing is not always as fair to everyone as the statement suggests. There were changes in the regulations on social housing in 2002—not for local authority allocations, but for 50 per cent. of housing association allocations. People can get allocated housing association accommodation more quickly than the indigenous population who are on a local government housing waiting list.

If members of the armed forces, particularly those who have served on operations around the world, need to exercise their local connections and return to the locality where they were born and brought up, I would like—if I am not being too greedy—the service that they have given their country to be recognised in preferential treatment, so that their families can be housed. Those families should never have to go into hostels or bed-and-breakfast accommodation. I hope that the Minister will give some consideration to that, because the system as it has operated since 2002 is not quite as fair as the statement suggests. However, I do not want to be churlish or spoil the moment, because I broadly welcome what he and the Minister for Housing and Planning have done.

On a completely different point, I am particularly pleased that the Under-Secretary is winding up the debate and I would like to refer to another matter that has been of great importance to my constituents and a source of considerable pleasure and pride: the introduction of the veterans badges. As anyone who is familiar with the scheme will know, the Government keep altering the time scale—rightly so—so that the scheme will encompass more people who have served their country in all wings of the armed forces. For a variety of reasons, the scheme—like many other schemes—was not as well known to individuals as it could have been. There were a number of veterans, particularly in the first wave, who were unaware that they were eligible and did not apply for badges, notwithstanding the tremendous work that the Royal British Legion and other veterans organisations did to try to get as many people as possible to receive their badges.


21 Jun 2007 : Column 1599

I welcome the fact that the Ministry of Defence and the Veterans Agency encouraged and facilitated Members of Parliament to help their constituents to acquire those badges. Having acquired a significant number of them for my constituents over the past 18 months, I must say that I am particularly pleased not only by how easily, but by how quickly, effectively and efficiently the system works. One takes it for granted—probably through bitter experience—that when one is dealing with a Department, regardless of who the Government are, things can get bogged down, there can be issues with the time scale, or there can be minor problems that string out the whole process. When acquiring the badges on behalf of my constituents, I was amazed by how quickly, effectively and efficiently things were done, and I pay tribute to all those involved. I am also pleased that we were able to have an input and that we were allowed, in effect, to get those badges on behalf of our constituents.

I thank the Under-Secretary, who had only just taken up his post when I had a presentation ceremony and a tea party arranged for 180 veterans and their families in my constituency. It is a shock to a Member of Parliament who has put a considerable amount of work into organising such an event—as did the staff in my office—to discover four days beforehand that the Under-Secretary was no longer the Under-Secretary and so would not be able to come. I will not go into the gory details of why the previous Under-Secretary was no longer the Under-Secretary; he ceased to be a Minister and we were Minister-less.

The veterans, many of whom had served in the second world war, in the Korean war, and in the Malaysia conflict during the late 1940s, were looking forward to a Minister being present. He may have been a Labour Minister of Defence, but that did not matter to the Minister or to the veterans, because party politics had been cast aside in recognising the debt that we owed to our veterans. The current Under-Secretary very kindly and at very short notice agreed to come to the ceremony. He did not just swan in, present the badges, get photographed and swan out. It was noticeable and greatly appreciated that he stayed to the end, mixing with the families and the veterans, and showing an interest in their lives and what they had accomplished.

The feedback that I got after the ceremony was tremendous. The veterans were genuinely appreciative not only of the efforts that went into arranging the presentation of the medals, but of the fact that a Minister who had been in post for 48 hours was prepared to come, as was the Lord Lieutenant of Essex, who kindly stepped in when we thought we would be Minister-less.

Andrew Mackinlay: He has a uniform.

Mr. Burns: Indeed, and medals.

I thank the Minister for taking part. It is an extremely good scheme, because it gives veterans recognition and a badge that they can wear with pride, and it reminds them of the service that they gave to their country, at whatever time that was.

4.46 pm

Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): We have had a good debate, with five contributions from the Conservatives, two from the Liberal Democrat Back
21 Jun 2007 : Column 1600
Benches and two from Labour. My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) referred to the unfortunate scheduling of the debate, which clashes with the Defence Committee’s visit to Selly Oak. I am sure that was unintentional. At business questions, it was cruelly suggested that the debate was scheduled to enable comrades opposite to attend Ascot. I am sure that was an unworthy slur.

My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), in a powerful performance, set out our belief that the armed forces are overstretched. The latest figures, released today by the Ministry of Defence, show once again that the deficit in the trained strength of the armed forces compared to the requirement has widened to 6,670, with another fall in the strength of our armed forces. We do not know how many people are serving in the Army this month because data are not available following the introduction of the new personnel administration system. I suspect that that figure has not been going in the right direction, either. There is an ongoing problem.

The Ministry of Defence’s refusal to accept that there is any overstretch is incredible. A little honesty would be much more sensible. The Secretary of State for Defence, having returned from Iraq with the Chancellor, admitted that the armed forces were in danger of being significantly “damaged” if they continued to fight in the same numbers abroad. He also admitted that with so many troops deployed on operations, training vital to the military’s long-term effectiveness had taken a back seat. The Secretary of State admitted that if we were seeking to sustain the operational tempo that is under way, we were in danger of degrading our forces. When Ministers try to pretend that we are not overstretched, just stretched, they do not do themselves any favours. A little openness, transparency and engagement with the argument would be welcome.

In his opening remarks the Minister of State suggested that recruitment was looking much better. Indeed, over the past year recruitment is up, compared with the year before. To be fair, he said only that it was an improvement on the year before. However, in recent years recruitment has been very poor. Over the past five years recruitment has fallen from 26,350 in 2003 to 23,540 in 2004, and was down to 17,590 in 2005, which was the worst year. It is only from that very low base that we see an improvement. It is true that things are starting to go in the right direction, but it is from a very low base. It is still true that the number of people leaving our armed forces considerably outstrips the number joining. In both of the past two years, the size of our armed forces has fallen by more than 5,000, which is clearly unsustainable when we are engaged on operations overseas.

It is worth repeating the key point made by my hon. Friend the shadow Defence Secretary and one or two other hon. Members. As the Prime Minister has said, we spend 2.5 per cent. of GDP on defence, and it has remained constant. Common sense suggests that if one spends the same amount when one is engaged in two military conflicts as when one is not engaged in military conflict, something has to give. What is giving is the long-term sustainability of our armed forces, and training is under threat and cuts in equipment are being made. We are in great danger of damaging our armed forces for the long term if we do not address the situation.


Next Section Index Home Page