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The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 277.
Division No. 162]
[6 pm



AYES


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul

Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Maples, Mr. John
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Crispin Blunt and
Andrew Rosindell
NOES


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham

Anderson, Mr. David
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok

Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Mr. Alan Campbell
Question accordingly negatived.
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27 Jun 2007 : Column 429

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27 Jun 2007 : Column 431

Schedule 8


Tribunals and Inquiries: consequential and other Amendments

Amendments made: No. 54, page 162, line 12, at end insert—

‘( ) In section 26 (retirement date for holders of certain judicial offices etc.) subsection (7) is amended as follows.

( ) In paragraph (f) for the words from “(persons” to the end substitute “(holders of relevant office);”.

( ) After paragraph (g) insert—

“(ga) hold office as a deputy judge of the Upper Tribunal if—

(i) section 94B of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 applied to the appointment, and

(ii) his corresponding qualifying office was listed in section 6(1) of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007;”’.

No. 55, page 162 , leave out lines 40 to 42 and insert—

‘Deputy judge of the Upper Tribunal appointed under paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 3 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, except in a case where the holding of the office by the person in question falls within section 26(7)(ga) of this Act

Deputy judge of the Upper Tribunal by virtue of an order under section 31(2) of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007’.— [Vera Baird.]

Schedule 11


District judges and deputy district judges

Amendments made: No. 56, page 201, line 26, leave out from ‘judge,’ to end of line 33 and insert ‘or

(b) holds, or has held, the office of district judge.

(1B) The Lord Chancellor may not appoint a person under subsection (1) without the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice if the person—

(a) holds the office of district judge, or

(b) ceased to hold the office of district judge within two years ending with the date when the appointment takes effect.

(1C) Section 85 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 (c. 4) (selection of certain office holders) does not apply to an appointment to which subsection (1B) applies.”’.

No. 57, page 201, line 38, leave out ‘under subsection (1B)’ and insert ‘to which subsection (1B) applies’.

No. 58, page 202, line 24, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) and insert—

‘(2) If the person had held the office of district judge before his appointment, the person is to be treated after the commencement date as if section 102(1B) of that Act had applied to his appointment (and had been complied with).’.

No. 59, page 203, line 7, leave out from ‘judge,’ to end of line 14 and insert ‘or

(b) holds, or has held, the office of district judge.

(1ZB) The Lord Chancellor may not appoint a person under subsection (1) without the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice if the person—

(a) holds the office of district judge, or

(b) ceased to hold the office of district judge within two years ending with the date when the appointment takes effect.

(1ZC) Section 85 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 (c. 4) (selection of certain office holders) does not apply to an appointment to which subsection (1ZB) applies.”


27 Jun 2007 : Column 432

( ) In subsection (1A)(a) (duration of appointment as deputy district judge of person who previously held office as district judge), for “if he has previously held office as a district judge,” substitute “if subsection (1ZB) applies to the appointment,”.’.

No. 60, page 204, line 4, leave out from ‘date’ to end of line 5 and insert

No. 61, page 204, leave out lines 15 to 19 and insert—

‘“(g) hold office as a deputy district judge if either section 102(1B) of that Act (former district judge appointed as deputy in the High Court) or section 8(1ZB) of the County Courts Act 1984 (former district judge appointed as deputy in the county courts) applied to the appointment;”.’.

No. 62, page 204, leave out lines 24 and 25 and insert

No. 63, page 204, leave out lines 28 and 29 and insert

Schedule 13


Taking control of goods: amendments

Amendments made: No. 64, page 233, leave out lines 11 to 15.

No. 65, page 245, line 11, at end insert—

Title

Amendment made: No. 67, line 3, after ‘appointments’, insert ‘and appointments to the Law Commission’.— [Vera Baird.]

Order for Third Reading read.—[Queen’s Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]

6.15 pm

Vera Baird: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

This has been called a heterogeneous Bill and that is a reasonably accurate description. It will create a simplified statutory framework for tribunals, improving access to justice in many ways and establishing a platform for future reform. It will strengthen the independence of tribunals by separating them from the departments whose decisions they are reviewing. It will increase consistency of procedure and rules and it will deliver efficiency savings by, for instance, allowing the tribunal judiciary to sit more readily in other jurisdictions. It will thus enable us in a number of ways to deliver better services to users.

The enforcement provisions will create a consolidated code of enforcement agent law, bringing much greater clarity and removing scope for abuse. The Bill will allow us to create a simplified fee structure that will reward enforcement agents up front to discourage abuse. It will provide debtors with a range of remedies
27 Jun 2007 : Column 433
when an enforcement agent breaches the new code, and it will create an enhanced and extended certification scheme for enforcement agents, paving the way to independent licensing by the Security Industry Authority.

The Bill contains a number of measures for debt management and relief, which will come to the assistance of debtors when that is desirable. It also contains what I think and hope from our most recent debate will be a balanced system between the owners of potentially looted goods and museums that need an element of immunity. In a number of other ways scattered around the Bill are improvements to access to justice broadly. In the words of “1066 And All That”, it is, I suggest, “a Good Thing”.

I am very grateful for the way in which members of the Committee and those who have taken part today have applied themselves in the most amiable way to trying to get the best out of the Bill and to helping the Government to make sure that it is as strong and effective an aid to improving access to justice as it could possibly be. So good natured have almost all the exchanges been that I think the worst allegation that has been made about the Government in the whole of the Bill’s passage through the House was that the Minister leading for the Government was a trendy dresser. I commend the Bill to the House.

6.18 pm

Mr. Bellingham: I thank the Minister for her comments. As she pointed out, the Bill tries to achieve a number of ends. In many ways, it is also quite a skeletal style of Bill, because of the meat that will have to be put on the bones through regulations, and we accept that.

We have subjected the Bill to substantial scrutiny in Committee, and I am grateful to the Minister for her forbearance and understanding and for ensuring that we have not had to guillotine the Bill at any stage. We had full debates in Committee and all the different concerns that we have put to the Government have been looked at. Although we cannot claim that we have had satisfaction on every single count, we have been able to put strong points of view on various fronts and we have had some of the concerns answered and some of our worst fears put to rest.

There are still areas that concern us. They have been gone through and I will not rehearse them now; it is not the time to do it. However, as a result of the Bill, we will have a far more efficient and effective unified tribunal system. The taxpayer ultimately will get better value for money if we look several years ahead. In the short term, there will obviously be implementation costs for the new unified tribunal system and I still have my concerns about the general tax commissioners. I always take the view, “If it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it.” Certainly I deeply regret the fact that the general commissioners have been included in the unified tribunal system.


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