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Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments):—


The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 191.
Division No. 173]
[10.16 pm



AYES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom

Havard, Mr. Dai
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis

Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Alan Campbell and
Ms Diana R. Johnson
NOES


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Duddridge, James
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greenway, Mr. John
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert

Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Lamb, Norman
Laws, Mr. David
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lidington, Mr. David
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Thurso, John
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Evennett and
Mr. Mark Lancaster
Question accordingly agreed to.
3 July 2007 : Column 929

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madam deputy speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.

Resolved,

REGULATORY REFORM

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 18(1)(Consideration of draft regulatory reform orders),

Question agreed to.

Madam Deputy Speaker: I call motion 5.

Mr. Roy: Not moved.

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have noticed that motion 5 would have discharged the Secretary of State for Justice from the Modernisation Committee and replaced him with the new Leader of the House. Many people on both sides of the House are concerned that someone who has such a party role could be appointed as Leader of the House and Chairman of the Modernisation Committee. Have you, Madam Deputy Speaker, heard why the motion has not been moved tonight and whether that is due to concerns about the role of the Leader of the House?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has raised what he considers to be a point of order, but it is not a point of order for the Chair. The motion just has not been moved.

PETITION

Armed Forces (Postal Charges)

10.31 pm

Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Con): Following Castle Point veterans day on Friday, which was a tremendous success and unprecedented, with more than 500 people attending, I am honoured to present a petition on behalf of tomorrow’s veterans. It calls on the Government to show that they recognise and care about the difficulties that our servicemen and women face right now. They are fighting and some are dying for the security of this country and the wider world; they are fighting people who would destroy our way of life. Like the Castle Point veterans, they are, as Tony Blair put it last week, the “bravest and the best”.

The petition states:

To lie upon the Table.


3 July 2007 : Column 933

Thomas Telford Anniversary

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr. Roy.]

10.33 pm

David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con): I am pleased to have secured the opportunity to mark in the House the 250th anniversary of the birth of Thomas Telford. I see this Adjournment debate as a contribution to the celebration of the life and legacy of an outstanding man, not just of his time but as one whose work has shaped his profession to this day, and many of whose engineering feats are still in use centuries later.

There is absolutely no doubt that Scotland would not be the place it is today without Thomas Telford. His work literally opened up the highlands with more than 900 miles of new roads, hundreds of bridges and ferry landing piers, and dozens of churches. Indeed, the work enabled the transportation of goods and people across the whole of Scotland, facilitating many aspects of the industrial revolution.

Today, we take it for granted that motorways, bridges and canals exist. We do not stop to consider that planning these transport networks and many aspects of the methodology of construction were visualised hundreds of years before. Telford’s Glasgow-to-Carlisle road, of which many parts remain, runs through my constituency and was the equivalent of the modern M74 motorway, which is only now being completed between Gretna and Carlisle.

Although this debate is taking place hundreds of miles from Telford’s birthplace at Glendinning at Westerkirk in the Dumfriesshire part of my constituency, it is taking place only a few hundred yards from his final resting place in Westminster Abbey—a mark of the esteem in which he is held and an honour bestowed on only one other civil engineer: Robert Stephenson, who pioneered the railways. Telford stamped his presence on civil engineering and is more than worth the set of stamps that the Royal Mail is producing this year. His legacy to his profession was in the standards he set for a reliable system of estimates, contracts, specifications and tenders, which are as relevant today as they were in the 1800s.

In our time, when social mobility is the subject of much debate, Thomas Telford’s achievement was that he rose from being the son of a shepherd on a remote Dumfriesshire hillside to being the most lauded and esteemed civil engineer in the empire. His poet friend Robert Southey termed him the “Colossus of Roads”. That is just one reason why I would like to see the Government in Westminster and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh do more to promote recognition of the achievements of Telford and people of his ilk, who did so much to shape the modern world in the final centuries of the last millennium.

Ahead of the debate, I had the opportunity to speak to Scotland’s new Culture Minister, Linda Fabiani MSP, and was encouraged by her acceptance that Scotland could do better in promoting the life and legacy of such people as Telford, who leave a permanent footprint on our way of life and remain a lasting influence over Scotland, the United Kingdom and the rest of the world. I want to make the same plea
3 July 2007 : Column 934
to the Minister on a United Kingdom basis because, with his works in Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland, Telford was truly a great Briton.

To understand the motivations of such a man, we need to accept and appreciate where he came from. Telford was born on 9 August 1757. His father was a herdsman on the sheep farm of Glendinning at Westerkirk. It was and remains a remote and isolated area. It is farmed today by Lorraine Luesher, who works hard to keep the tradition of hill farming alive in Eskdale and who has produced a booklet on the Telford legacy. His father died weeks after his birth and so his mother Janet brought up Thomas. The close-knit local community supported the boy, who was known as “laughing Tam” for his good nature. As a youngster, he attended Westerkirk school and much of his early life was spent working as a shepherd on neighbouring farms, and with his widowed mother.

After leaving school, Telford looked for work that offered decent prospects. His family were able to get him placed as an apprentice mason. His first master treated him very cruelly and Telford ran away, but his cousin Thomas Jackson found him work with Andrew Thomson, a Langholm mason. The Duke of Buccleuch was improving his estate at that time and Telford was kept busy, becoming a journeyman mason earning 18d a day. As he himself said,

During this time, Telford met Miss Pasley, whose books he was able to borrow. He became a voracious reader. He described his studies in the following way:

At the age of 23, Telford considered himself to be the master of his art and went to Edinburgh. Although he lived much of his adult life away from his place of birth, he always thought fondly of it, writing in his autobiography:

In Edinburgh, he studied drawing and its application to architecture. In 1782, Telford travelled south to find work in London, writing that he


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