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7.30 pm

Mr. Hanson: I accept that, and I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman has made. However, I must tell the House, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough and the hon. Member for Taunton that if the matter was controversial, there would be an opportunity to debate it on the negative procedure. I am simply trying to ensure that parliamentary scrutiny takes place if needed. I have moved my position. I have not moved as far as another place would wish, but I have tried to suggest a helpful compromise.

Mr. Garnier: Conversely, does the Minister not accept that if it is an uncontroversial matter but is none the less to be dealt with under the affirmative procedure, the House will not delay it? It could appear on the Order Paper in such a way that it does not upset the business managers—we would not want to do that, would we?

Mr. Hanson: As a former business manager in another life, I certainly would not want to have been upset in that way, nor would I wish to upset my colleagues on this occasion. There is a disagreement between us and, as ever, I suggest that we test whether the affirmative procedure is appropriate. I urge the House to support Government amendment (a).

Lords amendment agreed to.


18 July 2007 : Column 390

Clause 2


Responsibility for ensuring the provision of probation services

Lords amendment: No. 4

Mr. Hanson: I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 5 and 15, 16 and Government amendments (a) to (g) thereto, and Lords amendments Nos. 20 and 39 to 41.

Mr. Garnier: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm for the benefit of all hon. Members that Government amendment (a), which we discussed in the previous group of amendments, will be dealt with at the end of proceedings?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes, that is true. We always debate one amendment or new clause, and discuss other things at the same time, then vote on the amendment that we are debating. We take the other things as they come, in their normal order, on the amendment paper.

Mr. Hanson: I accept that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This group of amendments is the result of valuable discussions both here and in another place. Concerns had been expressed that non-public sector providers might not be required to reach the same standards as the public sector, so we have provided safeguards on standards and training. The Secretary of State must now publish guidelines on the qualifications, experience or training for staff working directly with offenders, and he must publish national standards for the management of offenders. The Bill ensures that both training guidelines and the national standards will apply to all providers as appropriate. We have provided safeguards in respect of local accountability, and we have responded to the concerns of staff and trade unions. The Bill has been greatly improved by the addition of those provisions, which I commend to the House.

Mr. Garnier: While the official Opposition may disagree with points of detail, I understand from those who know more about national bargaining and such matters that the National Association of Probation Officers and others are content with the structure that the Government have provided. In so far as they deal with national pay bargaining, the national regulatory framework that deals with the disciplining and regulation of providers of probation services, and so on, the amendments are acceptable.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Clause 1


Meaning of “the probation purposes”

Lords amendment: No. 1.

Mr. Hanson: I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendments.


18 July 2007 : Column 391

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 2, 3, 7, 10, 17 to 19, 21, 24 to 34, 37, 42 to 46 and 47, Government consequential (a) and Lords amendments Nos. 48 to 56.

Mr. Hanson: The amendments are all relatively minor, technical and consequential, and I do not propose to speak to them individually. I believe that they will attract no controversy, and I commend them to the House.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5 and 7 agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 8 disagreed to.

Government amendment (a) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 8 agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 9 disagreed to.

Lords amendment No. 10 agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 12 and 13 disagreed to.

Lords amendment No. 15 agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 16 and Government amendments (a) to (g) thereto agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 17 to 21 agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 23 disagreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 24 to 34 agreed to.

Lords amendment: No. 35.

Motion made, and Question put, That amendment (a) thereto be made:— [Claire Ward.]


The House divided: Ayes 266, Noes 127.
Division No. 195]
[7.44 pm



AYES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai

Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn

Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Bob Blizzard and
Claire Ward
NOES


Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Field, Mr. Mark
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harvey, Nick
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Herbert, Nick
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Horam, Mr. John
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Main, Anne

Malins, Mr. Humfrey
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Reid, Mr. Alan
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Alan
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thurso, John
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Walker, Mr. Charles
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mr. Roger
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Evennett and
Mr. Richard Benyon
Question accordingly agreed to.
18 July 2007 : Column 392

18 July 2007 : Column 393

18 July 2007 : Column 394

Lords amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 38 disagreed to.

Remaining Lords amendments, and consequential Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 47, agreed to.

Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments Nos. 6, 9, 12, 13, 22, 23 and 38; Mr. Jeremy Browne, Mr. Alan Campbell, Mr. Edward Garnier, Mr. David Hanson and Lynda Waltho; Mr. David Hanson to be the Chairman of the Committee; Three to be the quorum of the Committee.— [Mr. Alan Campbell.]

To withdraw immediately.

Reasons for disagreeing to certain Lords amendments reported, and agreed to; to be communicated to the Lords.

Delegated Legislation

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With the leave of the House, I will take motions 6, 7 and 8 together.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No.118(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),


European Communities


Electronic Communications


18 July 2007 : Column 395

Northern Ireland

Question agreed to.

Electoral Commission


Electoral Commissioners

Motion made and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Order [11 July] and Standing Order No.118(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

Question agreed to.


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