Clause
10
The
information
function
Mr.
Prisk:
I beg to move amendment No. 10, in
clause 10, page 6, line 31, leave
out ‘may’ and insert
‘must’.
The
Chairman:
With this it will be convenientto
discuss amendment No. 11, in clause 10, page 6,line 31, leave
out from ‘facilitate’ to end of line 32and
insert ‘disseminate advice and information to
consumers—’.
Mr.
Prisk:
I should like to deal with the two amendments
together and with the arguments at the heart of each of them. The
amendments seek to ensure that the new National Consumer Council
provides the essential information about its activities and functions
to all consumers. We debated earlier the need for openness and the
vital function of that transparency if the National Consumer Council is
to establish itself as a genuine voice and an advocate, as the Minister
put it, for
consumers.
At
present, the clause merely suggests that the Secretary of State
may
“facilitate the
dissemination...of advice and
information”.
That is a
well-meaning phrase, but it feels rather generalised and undirected,
could be open to interpretation and will fall short of how I suspect
most consumers would expect that new body to function. There is also a
danger that, unless there is a clear prescriptive intention, the
council and its various component parts—we learned earlier that
many of the council’s functions will be delegated down through
its territorial and other committees—might not ensure that many
key consumer issues are
disseminated.
Concerns
also extend to the dissemination of information about the council and
its functions. As I have argued elsewhere, it is vital that not only is
the council open in its functions and operation, but is seen to be
open. The Minister has been positive in respect of similar amendments,
so I should be interested to hear whether he accepts my points and
whether, in doing so, he can provide some
assurance.
Mr.
McCartney:
The amendment is very similarto
amendment No. 44. To be fair to the Liberal Democrats and
Conservatives, they have both tabled
similar amendments in the Lords during general debate and on Report. I
apologise to the Committee if some of the things that I say are similar
to what has been said, but I must be consistent in my response to do
justice to the amendment.
As we made clear during
discussion on amendment No. 44, the new council has been given three
statutory core functions, and the amendment relates to the information
function. We have a clear expectation that the council will make use of
all three functions effectively and transparently. However, the
amendment again raises the question of whether we should or will
attempt to require the council to undertake all the functions at the
same time, or set out its core functions and leave the new body to
determine how and when they are exercised according to priority and
need and in accordance with its forward work
programme.
The hon.
Member for Hertford and Stortford raised a fair point, not just
intellectually but in practical terms. If we give the council three
statutory core functions, what certainty and bottom line will there be?
Will it be clear what the three functions are and how they operate?
Will someone looking at the work programme be able to say, “Yes,
this body is taking seriously all aspects of its functions”?
Attached to those functions are two other things: financial resource
and human resource. The council must have the capacity to put all three
things together transparently.
My point should not be taken
in isolation but with all the discussions that we have had on other
clauses. They should be pieced together to get the picture. There will
be a statutory function, a consultation process for the work programme
and consultation and transparency about financial resources and which
parts fall to Government and to other appropriate bodies. For those
parts that fall to other appropriate bodies, to ensure transparency in
the system, those bodies must say how and how effectively those
resources are spent, and what their capacity is to meet the budget. The
other locks are not just the annual report but the report on how the
NCC is carrying out its work programme and its capacity to make
determinations when the programme needs to change to meet
circumstances.
We
have chosen the hon. Gentleman’s second option. We cannot compel
the council to discharge the core functions, because the functions do
not stand by themselves. We cannot say that the council shall or must
provide advice and information without saying to whom and about what it
must provide it. The council must make that choice. It goes back in the
end to the matter of independence, but independence does not mean an
excuse to do nothing, or to turn a blind eye to a blatant injustice for
the consumer in the marketplace.
I have no doubts
whatever about how we are establishing the NCC. It will bring together
the redress schemes and the panoply of other measures in the Bill. The
NCC’s whole sense of direction when established will be that of
an advocate, with a strong ethos of acting in the consumer’s
interest. I am certain that in all circumstances, it will give the
consumer the benefit of the doubt on the issues brought before it,
whether policy issues or individual or collective complaints needing
redress. It is therefore important that we give the council the
opportunity to do so, which is why we have chosen this
option.
On amendment No. 11, what we
are trying to achieve is the creation of a strong body that can
influence and bring about change for the better on consumers’
behalf. We are giving it the right to advocate for individuals or
collective groups of consumers where something goes wrong, but we also
want to give it as a preventive strategy the ability to influence
policy outcomes to ensure that the marketplace operates effectively on
the consumer’s behalf, and that those who provide goods and
services have an ethos and a way of managing their business that
protects the consumer’s interests and not just those of their
own organisation. It is important that we provide the opportunity to
act on behalf of consumers. To achieve that, there will be certain
functions and circumstances in relation to which an autonomous approach
can be taken. An example is the new council’s powers under
clause 17 to prepare and
publish
“a report in
relation to any matter falling within the scope of its
functions.”
However,
the new body also needs to be able to work with and through others. A
prime example involves the relationship to consumer education. That is
an area in which the Office of Fair Trading has a statutory function
under section 6 of the Enterprise Act 2002
to
“publish educational
materials or carry out other educational
activities”
and
to
“support...such
activities or the provision by others of information or
advice.”
The
new council would be expected to contribute to that process with a view
to advocating the consumer interest in the provision of education and
information by the OFT or other parties. That is very important. It is
an innovation. The council will have not only an influence over its own
role and remit, but a specific influence over the remit and role of
others who have a duty towards consumers. That is vital and is why we
have drafted the function as we have. It permits the council not only
to facilitate the dissemination of information and advice by others,
but to disseminate information itself. That is vital if the council is
to be out there and seen there, marching forward on behalf of
consumers. The ability is not just to put information out itself, but
to ensure that others do so as well. That is
innovation.
Amendment
No. 11 would remove the ability of the new council to operate in this
fashion, which is why I will resist it. I assume that it will not be
accepted. I assume that it was tabled to enable me to give the
Committee assurances about what the clause means and the role that we
expect the NCC to play in operating the clause in a practical way on
behalf of
consumers.
Mr.
Prisk:
The Minister and I share a view that this debate is
about practicalities as much as it is any form of discussion as to the
intellectual essence of what the organisation should be. Clearly, in a
legislative process, one challenge is how we ensure that what is
written in the Bill is put into practice. As the Minister correctly
articulated, that is the purpose of these probing
amendments.
I had not
considered this before the debate—we all learn something every
day—but I accept that the
collaborative approach would be restrained by amendment No. 11. Clearly,
that was not its purpose, so I think that the Minister has raised a
very good point. There is a strong argument for the council to be able
to work in partnership. We see that later in the Bill. It is an
important ethos, not least given the increased complexity of issues in
the consumer field. Therefore, the Minister has raised an important
issue. However, the
essential point, which I wanted to draw from the Minister and which I
am glad he has put on the record, is the key word
“expectation”. It is the expectation of the Government
that the council will ensure that the functions set out in the Bill are
implemented. That is the critical part of the process. I am delighted
to hear that put on the record and I am therefore only too pleased to
beg to ask leave to withdraw the
amendment.
Amendment,
by leave,
withdrawn.
Clause
10 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
11
General
powers of
investigation
Mr.
Prisk:
I beg to move amendment No. 15, in clause 11, page
7, line 11, leave out subsection
(2).
The amendment is
reasonably straightforward. Its purpose is to seek from the Minister
the rationale behind the criteria chosen, rather than necessarily to
remove any criteria from being chosen. I have a further point related
to that. Will a “novel issue”, which is the term
highlighted in the clause, have to be entirely new? One thought that
occurred to me was whether, if an issue arose in Scotland and then a
similar issue arose in Hertfordshire, it would be determined to be
novel, not least given the fact that the two locations have different
legal systems. Will the Minister clarify exactly what he means by
“novel” and what its limits would
be?
5.45
pm
Mr.
McCartney:
I will try to give the hon. Gentleman a
rational explanation of what we are attempting to achieve with the
clause. I accept from the outset that it is a probing amendment, and I
hope to give a response to it and to provide the Committee with
information that will be helpful in relation to the
clause.
Clause 11
will provide the new council with general powers of investigation, and
subsection (1)(a) will permit the council to investigate
“a complaint made by or on behalf
of a consumer which appears to the Council to raise one or more issues
of general relevance”.
A
consumer could make a specific complaint on their own behalf and a
wider issue could be raised by a general complaint. We need the
capacity to deal with wider issues, while dealing with specific issues
raised by the individual consumer. In other words, a distinction will
be drawn between the investigation of a complaint that may be relevant
to consumers generally and an individual complaint. The new council
will not have a role in the investigation of individual complaints,
other than those made by vulnerable consumers in the designated
sectors.
The Bill will provide new and
better ways to handle individual complaints and introduce new
complaints handling standards, which will be set by the regulators in
energy and postal services. It will provide a new redress scheme to
determine issues that cannot be resolved by a consumer’s
supplier.
On general
complaints, subsection (2) empowers the new council to investigate
complaints that involve novel issues that affect a group of consumers
or consumers generally, or that may have an important effect on a group
of consumers or consumers generally. The hon. Gentleman asked what a
novel issue will be, and my practical explanation is that, as I said at
the outset, it is an issue that is raised in a way that has wider
implications for consumers’ rights in the marketplace.
Therefore, a judgment will be made ina particular instance
about what would affect such
changes.
Susan
Kramer:
I wish to ask for clarification on a point. As the
Minister takes us through this helpful discussion of the general powers
of investigation, he will be conscious that people’s complaints
have been important in exposing general underlying problems, rather
than just an isolated problem. Information from complaints has not only
been important to the various watchdogs, but to the regulators. Given
the proposed change in structure, will the Minister discuss how the
information flow that he describes as complaints to or from the
National Consumer Council will also transfer, where relevant, to the
regulators for their
purposes?
Mr.
McCartney:
In that respect, “novel” does
indeed mean new, but clause 11 will permit the new council to
investigate other issues as well. We are therefore providing the new
council with a wide scope, which I am sure that we all want to see, as
it will give the council direction when exercising its powers of
investigation.
I
have heard the assertion that consumers will be stranded by the new
arrangements. In the discussions on planning for implementation, the
consumer bodies made it clear that they have no consistent means of
recording contacts, inquiries and complaints and that they have no
means of distinguishing the instances where consumers may be merely
referred to companies or elsewhere for assistance. Consequently,
consumer bodies have asked my Department to undertake a special project
to get to the bottom of that matter, and we have agreed to do so with
their assistance. That relates to one of the points made by the hon.
Member for Richmond Park about certainty of what the process involves
and about learning from the experiences of consumers, the issues that
they raise and how best to resolve
them.
The project
consultants will first review the classification criteria across
bodies—for example, contacts, inquiries, complaints, complex
complaints and complex inquiries. Secondly, they will identify a set of
comparable data between the bodies on volume and type of all contacts.
Thirdly, they will map how inquiries and complaints are handled.
Fourthly, they will develop recommendations for how designated
vulnerable consumers, as defined by the Bill, will be
identified across the bodies. Fifthly, they will apply any definition
developed to provide a cut of the current data relating to consumers
who might be identified as designated vulnerable consumers. It is
important to future debates that we can make decisions based on
evidence and in a way that is effective for consumers, particularly
vulnerable consumers. The project is currently under
way, and I hope that work will be complete by the end of April or the
beginning of May. I assure the hon. Members for Richmond Park and for
Hertford and Stortford that when work is complete, I will brief them on
the outcome. From my perspective, I want to provide certainty and an
assurance to all concerned in the implementation of the project that no
one will be left guessing about the direction that we are taking to set
up the new organisation. When it is established, the
organisation’s introduction will be phased in, so that
everyone—not just consumers, but those who have taken the time
to develop the proposal’s structure—can be certain about
it. I hope that that explanation helps hon.
Members.
The hon.
Lady’s legitimate question referred to the implementation
strategy, which we will discuss in more detail during a later sitting,
when we have more information about this serious
matter.
Mr.
Prisk:
It was nice to be provided unexpectedly with an
additional piece of information, which I hope that the Minister will
send to other members of the Committee. He understandably wished to
show his willingness to share the information, but it is important that
we all have the chance to deliberate on these matters. I am encouraged
to know that work is taking place. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
amendment.
Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Clause
11 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
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