 House of Commons |
Session 2006 - 07 Publications on the internet General Committee Debates Vehicle Registration Marks Bill |
Vehicle Registration Marks Bill |
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Emily
Commander, Committee
Clerk
†
attended the Committee
Public Bill CommitteeWednesday 18 April 2007[Derek Conway in the Chair]Vehicle Registration Marks Bill9.30
am
The
Chairman:
It is a warm day, so if hon. Members wish to
remove their jackets, it will certainly be in order. I understand that
it is hoped that the Committee will conclude consideration of the Bill
at this sitting. Should that not prove possible, I shall invite
Mr. Ottaway to move a sittings motion specifying the date
and time of our next meeting before we adjourn. In the event of a
second sitting, I do not intend to call starred
amendments.
Before I
call Mr. Knight to move the first amendment, I shall explain
to the Committee that the proposed new subsection in the amendment is
numbered ZA, but it should, of course, be 7ZA, which might help hon.
Members to find the relevant part of the
Bill.
Clause 1Retention
of registration marks pending
transfer
Mr.
Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I beg to move
amendment No. 1, in
clause 1, page 1, line 20, at
end insert—
‘(2A) In section
57 of that Act
(regulations)—
(a) in
subsection (7), after ‘Act’ insert ‘(other than
regulations under section
26(1))’.
(b) after
subsection (7),
insert—
“(ZA) A
statutory instrument containing regulations under section 26(1) may not
be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and
approved by a resolution of both Houses of
Parliament.”’.
I
believe that the last time I was in a Room with you, Mr.
Conway, and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South was 1995 when
we were in the Government Whips office. Unlike the present Government,
we did not know from day to day whether we would have a majority, but I
still think back to those days as the good old days, as I am sure you
do.
I say to my hon.
Friend that I am not here to wreck the Bill. I support the thrust of
what he is trying to achieve, and the Bill is a modest measure that we
should all welcome, but it has led me to ponder why we have to be as
regulated as we are. In the United States, for example, any person who
owns a motor car can have any number or combination of numbers and
letters on his car as his registration number. I believe that there is
a maximum number of numerals that he can choose, but what he chooses is
entirely a matter for him, provided that no one else has
it.
I remember that a
few years back I met a popular entertainer, who is no longer with us,
called Dean Martin. He told me that he had the registration number
“DRUNKY” on his car, because it played up his stage
persona. Why can we not have a similar system? You, Mr.
Conway, could have “CHAIR1” as your registration plate. I
mention that en passant, because we seem to be obsessed by red tape and
regulation. The Bill, modest as it is, is a step in the right
direction, as it seeks slightly to liberalise the rules in respect of
cherished number plate
transfers.
The
Minister of State, Department for Transport (Dr. Stephen
Ladyman):
Were we to follow the course that the right hon.
Gentleman is suggesting, there would not be a significant income to the
Government through the sale of such number plates, and there would not
be a cherished number plate industry, in which case a lot of people
would lose their jobs and
livelihoods.
My
amendment would change the procedure by which regulations would need to
be dealt with under the Bill by removing the negative procedure and
requiring that any regulations be subject to the positive procedure. If
it were left to me, I would remove the negative procedure from the
statute book completely. Silence should never be deemed to be consent,
and when we make law Parliament should always have a say and be asked
to give its
approval.
I suspect
that the Minister will resist my amendment by telling the Committee
that any regulations made under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act
1994 are subject to the negative procedure, and that if the amendment
were allowed, it would create an anomaly to the extent that regulations
made under the Bill would be subject to a different procedure. I can
see that there is some force in that argument, but I nevertheless hope
that the Minister agrees that whenever the law is changed, Parliament
should be asked for its
consent.
I also have
two concerns that I want to place on record and invite the Minister to
comment on. One is about the regulations, and the other is of a more
general nature. Dealing with the overall position, I hope that the
Minister will confirm that no discussions with our European partners
have taken place, are taking place or are about to take place about
harmonising licence plate numbers. Will he confirm that no such
discussions have taken place or are on the horizon? He has already
referred to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency making a
considerable amount of money by selling cherished numbers, but in my
view if, at the same time, the Government were looking at changing our
procedure in some way and making our existing numbers obsolete, that
would be tantamount to obtaining by deception, if discussions were
taking place at the same time as the Government were making money by
selling existing registration numbers. I hope that the Minister will
confirm that there is no EU agenda
here.
My second
concern relates directly to the regulations made under the Bill. If the
Bill becomes law, which I hope, there will have to be a change in some
of the procedures at the DVLA. In the past, in a pre-computer age, I
suppose that that would not have caused a problem, but these days in
any office, or
certainly Department, everything is part of a computer programme. If the
Bill becomes law, I suspect that the DVLA will need to commission some
new computer software at an inflated price. I would like the Minister
to confirm that the Department will absorb any costs so incurred and
not seek in the regulations to pass on the extra cost to those who wish
to take part in a cherished transfer. I hope that he will assure me
that the cherished transfer fee will not be increased as a result of
the legislation.
My
hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South and the Department
have produced some very helpful explanatory notes. I refer the
Committee to paragraph 13, which
states:
“There
are not expected to be any additional
costs”.
I assume that the
Minister consented to the second
sentence:
“Departmental
systems development costs estimated at £95,000 to
£100,000 will be met by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing
Agency.”
I would like the
Minister to confirm today in the O
ff
icial
R
eport that that is his pledge to the Committee should the
Bill become law. If he can satisfy me on my two latter points, I will
seek the Committee’s permission to withdraw the
amendment.
Dr.
Ladyman:
It is a pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship, Mr. Conway. The explanation that the right
hon. Gentleman suggested that I would give to the Committee for why I
was going to resist his amendment was not the explanation that I was
going to give, but it is such a good one that I will now adopt it as
Government
policy.
I
think that I can give the right hon. Gentleman the assurances he is
seeking. First, I have had no discussions whatsoever with ministerial
colleagues about harmonisation of number plates, and I am not aware
that any of my officials have had such discussions. If any such
discussions are going on in the Commission or elsewhere, then I am not
aware of them. Personally, I would resist any such discussions, for the
reasons that I stated earlier. There is a thriving cherished number
plate industry in this country, which would come to an end and from
which the DVLA makes a significant amount of money on behalf of the
taxpayer that the taxpayer would otherwise have to step in and provide.
It would not be in our interest to harmonise number plates. European
number plates are very boring, and we should have a little romance and
excitement in our lives, even if it is only in our number
plates.
As stated in
the explanatory notes, the cost will be £95,000 to
£100,000. It is our intention to absorb that cost and not to
pass it on in the cherished number plate transfer fee. The Committee
may look upon it as my gift to the cherished number plate
industry.
Sir
Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
Will the Minister clarify where the cost will be absorbed from if it
does not come from those particular DVLA
customers?
Dr.
Ladyman:
It will be absorbed within the general overheads
of the DVLA and the money that we make from the sale of cherished
number plates. I cannot, however, promise that the transfer fee will
never
increase or that it will not be reviewed at some point, because it is
not in my power to do so. However, if there is an increase, it will not
be as a result of this change. I hope that those are the reassurances
that the right hon. Gentleman seeks and that, having got them on the
record, he will withdraw the
amendment.
Mr.
Knight:
I am grateful to the Minister. He has satisfied me
so far as he is able to do so, and on that basis I beg to ask leave to
withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Question proposed, That
the clause stand part of the Bill.
Richard
Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): Having had the pleasure of
your acquaintance for well over 20 years, Mr.
Conway, I believe that this is the first time that I have had the
distinct honour and privilege of appearing in a Committee chaired by
you, which makes it a red letter day for us all.
Let me briefly outline the
Bill. A feature on Second Reading was the emptiness of the Chamber, and
one or two people might not have had the chance to read an explanation
of the measure in Hansard. As the Minister said in response to
the amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for East
Yorkshire, the Bill concerns a thriving business. I have read that
Croydon, South, which I have the privilege to represent, has the
wealthiest postcode in Britain and that a considerable number of people
there can afford personalised number plates.
The Minister described people
having such plates as a bit of romantic activity in our lives. I looked
at a website the other day to see what the number “RO1”
would cost. It is for sale for £175,000, but it is privately
owned, so the proceeds will not go to the DVLA. None the less, the
answer to my right hon. Friend is that the Minister is the custodian of
a vast number of number plates, the sale of which will probably
comfortably recover the costs. In fact, I am sure that the Minister
will not mind my mentioning that in a private conversation he described
a number plate that the DVLA sold the other day for a considerable
sum.
Mr.
Knight:
I am not sure whether one needs to declare an
interest in these proceedings if one owns a cherished number plate. If
that is the case, can I declare an interest four times? My hon. Friend
did not tell the Committee whether he is going to purchase
“RO1”.
9.45
am
Richard
Ottaway:
I am afraid that a parliamentary salary prohibits
such extravagant behaviour, although there are more modestly priced
number plates on the market. My right hon. Friend has mentioned that he
must declare an interest four times over, and I believe that he has a
barn that is bigger than his house in which he keeps a number of
cars.
There is a
problem with the transfer of private number plates. Just imagine,
Mr. Conway, that one of my right hon. Friend’s cars
had the number plate “DC1”, that you took an interest in
it and that my right hon. Friend decided to sell it to you for
£200,000. The first thing that he would do would be to take it
off the
car and put it on what is known as retention. That is where the problems
start, particularly if you do not have a car to put it on. You might
think, having given him £200,000, that you now own the number
plate, but you are not the grantee because you have not gained title to
the number plate. If my right hon. Friend, who is an honest man, had a
change of character, he could sell the plate to someone else for
£200,000, because you still need his permission when you put it
on a car. Even if he were not a dishonest person, but simply decided to
go on a long hunt around the far east looking for new vehicles, or
something of that nature, and was not available to sign the paperwork
when you wanted to put the number plate on to your car, there would be
a hold-up.
Clause 1,
which is the heart of the Bill—it is a two-clause Bill, after
all—amends the law so that you, Mr. Conway, would
have a legal right to and ownership of that number plate while you are
the grantee and holding it on retention. That would allow a buyer to
hold a number plate on retention legally. Some people might think that
that is a fairly minor thing, but it has a fundamental impact on what
is a large and growing industry. It will eliminate fraud; it will
provide certainty; and it will create an opportunity for the industry
to be put on a sounder basis that it is at present. The Bill, and
clause 1 in particular, gives effect to that, and I hope that
colleagues will feel able to support the measure and the
Bill.
Mr.
Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): It is an enormous
pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Mr. Conway.
I rise briefly to support my hon. Friend and to congratulate him
heartily on coming 10th in the private Members’ ballot. I came
16th last year, and, sadly, the European Communities Act 1972
(Disapplication) Bill never got a Second Reading. I congratulate my
hon. Friend on getting his Bill in Committee. As he has said, the heart
of the Bill is in clause 1, which makes a minor tweak of the
regulations to allow the easier trading of number plates. As the
Minister has explained, the relatively modest sum involved is less than
the traded value of some of these number plates. Will he tell us the
total value of the sale of the plates and say whether it is on an
upward curve? Does he have the figures for the past couple of years, so
that we can judge the percentage of the cost set against the total
turnover on the sale of number
plates?
This is a
modest measure and I heartily congratulate my hon. Friend on the
professional way in which he has brought it to Committee. We support
clause 1, as
drafted.
Sir
Robert Smith:
Thank you, Mr. Conway. I am more
used to serving with you on the Accommodation and Works Committee,
where more controversial matters have come before
us.
I congratulate the
hon. Member for Croydon, South on introducing the measure. Anything
that makes life easier for people engaging in an activity that they
enjoy and that does no harm to society makes sense, and it is a
pleasure to see a law that will reduce the burden of
bureaucracy. The passing of legislation is not always burdensome, and it
can have aspects of
relief.
I hope that
the Minister will assure us that he will speedily produce the
regulations when the measure is passed, as he will then be entitled to
do.
Dr.
Ladyman:
I can certainly give the hon. Member for West
Aberdeenshire and Kincardine that assurance. Should the Bill be passed,
we want to move as quickly as possible to put the necessary regulations
in place.
The story
that the hon. Member for North Shropshire told shows the merits of
having realistic ambitions for private Members’ Bills. I
congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon, South on being prepared to
use his opportunity in the private Members’ ballot to do
something that will be of practical benefit to a number of people. It
is perhaps not going to be the most earth-shattering piece of politics
with which the House will engage this year, but it will make a few
people a little better off, so it is not a bad thing. I am also
grateful to him for working so closely with the Government on the
passage of the Bill, assuming that it passes today, and when it returns
to the Floor of the
House.
In answer to
the question about how much the industry is worth, so far the DVLA has
amassed more than £1 billion from the sale of cherished number
plates, which is not insubstantial. If the figure were to reach
£2 billion, I would be very happy, too. We should continue to
support the sale of cherished number
plates.
Mr.
Paterson:
That is an amazing sum. Will the Minister tell
us when this practice started, and what the annual turnover is
now?
Dr.
Ladyman:
I cannot give the Committee that information
offhand, but if guidance should reach me from above before I
sit down, I shall certainly provide
it.
Mr.
Knight:
In addition to providing that information, will he
confirm that some sales take place by auction rather than by private
treaty? If he cannot tell us today, will he perhaps tell us on Third
Reading when the next auction is taking place, because some of us may
wish to put in a
bid?
Dr.
Ladyman:
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that some of
these things are done by auction. The conversation that I had with the
hon. Member for Croydon, South, to which he referred in his speech,
about some number plates that were sold for £250,000 each
concerned an auction. I suppose that we have all wondered why anybody
would want to spend so much money on a number plate, but it is their
money, and so long as they are giving it to the DVLA, it is going to a
good cause. I am very happy that people should continue to do
that.
Sir
Robert Smith:
Does the Minister have any estimate of the
remaining value of what is still available to be auctioned? Is this a
long-term money-making exercise or will it be exhausted in a fairly
short time, in which case the DVLA will have to look elsewhere for
funding?
Dr.
Ladyman:
I do not know how one would devise an algorithm
to work out the total number of combinations of letters and numbers and
which of them are meaningful and have value to people. I do not think
that that calculation can be done. I have also looked through the lists
of numbers that are sold in newspapers for as little as a few hundred
pounds or up to a few thousand pounds. Quite frankly, I struggled to
see what is cherished or unique about some of them. However, if
somebody’s name happens to be Charles Bernard Xavier, they would
be interested in “CBX”, whereas nobody else would see any
significance in
it.
Mr.
Knight:
Presumably, the pool of cherished numbers is
replenished each year. I assume that every year the Department looks
through the numbers that are coming on stream and holds back those that
it thinks have a value for later
sale.
Dr.
Ladyman:
The pool is certainly replenished every year, and
we are alive to that. It is not just the DVLA that goes through that
process. I had a conversation with a dealer from the cherished number
plate industry who explained his job to me. In his words, it is to wait
for inspiration about what number plates might be of interest to
certain individuals or businesses, and then acquire such a number
plate, which nobody realises has any particular significance until he
has that inspiration. He then approaches the business and points out
that the plate would be of benefit to it.
Those of us who work around
Westminster will have seen the vehicles of Pimlico Plumbers, which have
the most amazing cherished number plates including “BOG”
and “LOO”. They even manage to make words
such as “shower” out of a number plate—personally,
I cannot imagine how they get the inspiration to do it. However, it is
part of their advertising and their public relations, and it adds a
little to the fun and amusement of the world. If, as a result, it means
that the taxpayer has to pay a little less tax, that is a good thing,
too.
So the clause has
the Government’s full support. I assure the House that we
consulted widely on the need for this change and that there was
widespread support for it. The Association of Chief Police Officers has
no objection to the change, which will work in exactly the way that the
hon. Member for Croydon, South has explained. It does not introduce any
new opportunities for abuse or fraud, and it will therefore benefit
people who work in the cherished number plate industry and people who
own or want to sell such number plates. I am happy to offer my support
to the clause and to the Bill in
general.
I can provide
the Committee with the information that was requested. I do not
currently have details of annual income, but I can write to hon.
Members. If we find the information by Friday, I will tell the House on
Friday, if we manage to get Third Reading. The DVLA entered the sale of
marks scheme in 1989, so £1 billion has been accumulated in a
relatively short period of time. Well done to the DVLA staff for all
their efforts, and well done to all those people who have more money
than they know what to do with and who want to buy these things from
us.
Question put
and agreed
to.
Clause 1
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause 2
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Bill to
be reported, without
amendment.
Committee
rose at
three minutes to Ten
o’clock.
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