Examination of Witnesses (Questions 326-339)
MS SOPHIE
LIVINGSTONE AND
MR PETER
SHIMWELL
17 OCTOBER 2006
Chair: Thank you for installing yourselves
in our absence. Anne is going to start the questioning.
Q326 Anne Main: In its memorandum, the
Foyer Federation suggested that the high number of older people
that there tend to be in coastal towns has led to service providers
focusing on their needs, which you could argue is only right since
there are lots of them, but the result of this might be that there
might not be enough facilities for young people. To what extent
does this make you any worse off than any other area which happens
to have a high proportion of elderly people?
Ms Livingstone: I think that is
the overarching theme of our evidence and certainly the work we
have done since being called to give oral evidence. We have spoken
to 14 out of the 18 coastal foyers, and there are 134 foyers at
the moment around the UK, and certainly the issues that are coming
up are ones that I think we both agree are not specific to coastal
areas, they actually cut across the issues that most foyers are
facing. So, yes, there are (and this is all anecdotal) instances
of foyers facing problems with young people having problems accessing
services due to the focus on older people, but, as you rightly
say, that is not specific to coastal areas at all.
Q327 Anne Main: When you say it is
anecdotal, you have no facts and figures to back-up the fact that
young people have not been able to access services?
Ms Livingstone: Unfortunately
not. We are a very small organisation and what we have had to
do is literally phone our foyers and ask them for examples, and
in busy projects they cannot, unfortunately, give us data. However,
this is what they are telling us, that it is very difficult. For
example, I spoke to Cromer Foyer, and they have had problems with
accessing dentists because of the high proportion of retired people
in the local community who have got more money to go and pay for
dentistry. Therefore, there is a lack of NHS dentists.
Q328 Anne Main: This the great pound
again. This is someone with money coming into an area and disadvantaging
younger people or families?
Ms Livingstone: Yes, but then
you can argue that access to NHS dentistry is a nationwide problem.
Q329 Chair: Mr Shimwell, you are
in the Redruth Foyer. Is that right?
Mr Shimwell: That is correct,
yes.
Q330 Chair: You obviously would be
able to speak for the experience of that particular foyer?
Mr Shimwell: Yes, certainly. I
would not describe Redruth particularly as a coastal town, although
I speak for the other foyers within our group, Devon and Cornwall
Housing, which include Padstow, Plymouth and Torbay, and I have
certainly got an understanding of coastal towns around the UK
and foyers. In answer to the question that you ask—"Why
are coastal towns any different?"—I think you have
to see it in the context that coastal towns have basically got
two seasons. They have got summer seasons where there is an influx
tourists and people around and then a winter season where literally
lots of things close up. Those services (cafes) actually close
down for six months, eight months of the year, leaving lots of
young people who are living in foyers absolutely nothing to do.
Walking through Padstow last week I must have seen half a dozen
cafes, boarded up places, closed, and with so many holiday lets
in the centre of the town, it really is a dead town, it is a community
really with no heart, and I think the knock-on effect on our young
people is that, without anything to do, young people can get involved
in negative behaviour—drug and alcohol misuse is quite common—and
I think that is particular of lots of coastal towns.
Q331 Anne Main: How do you address
these things? As you say, these things are open at other times,
obviously when the demand is there and the business is worth running,
and then shuts down when there is not enough business to sustain
them. So, what is it that you are suggesting? How would you suggest
that access to these facilities could be provided?
Mr Shimwell: I certainly think
services for young people, both in the voluntary sector and in
the statutory sector, run on shoestrings, and the various bits
of money that they can obtain get spent on things which cost a
lot of money in coastal areas. If I can give an example, in the
centre of Torbay there is no meeting place for young people at
all and a lot of the money has been spent on services for housing
and shelter for older people and community centres.
Q332 Anne Main: This is council money?
Mr Shimwell: Yes.
Q333 Anne Main: Is that because the
voters are elderly voters and they are voting for the services
they want?
Mr Shimwell: I guess so. Young
people do not turn up in numbers to vote, unfortunately, quite
a lot of them—obviously those of 16 and under do not get
a chance in any case—but it does seems to me that in coastal
towns there is an intergenerational gap in that they see people
on the street, they have got nothing to do, "Let us get them
off the street and get them doing something", without actually
consulting the young people on this. What I would like to see
is more young people, like the young people in our foyers, being
consulted on the services that are provided for them, because
I think they are very much demonised in the press and by a lot
of communities. They are seen as a problem rather than an opportunity
or a solution.
Q334 Anne Main: Is that a government
or a local government problem though? Where do you think the fault
lies? Is it local government not listening or assessing the real
needs in its areas?
Mr Shimwell: I think it possibly
is a local issue, because I think some areas certainly manage
to engage their young people better than others. I cannot really
comment on the national picture.
Q335 Anne Main: You do not think
there is a national policy implication then, that there should
be some sort of national policy for this?
Mr Shimwell: I do not think so.
I think regionally local authorities need to look at the contributions
that they are making and consider where their money is being spent
and, if there is a need to provide services for young people in
these coastal towns, where is the money going and are young people
consulted on those issues?
Q336 Lyn Brown: You touched a little
on intergenerational issues, and in your memorandum you talk about
intergenerational conflict. Could you explain that a little for
us?
Ms Livingstone: Certainly it is,
again, something that is raised by foyers generally, but, obviously,
it is exacerbated in areas with a higher proportion of older people.
Eastbourne Foyer talked about older people fearing younger people
in the town. They see groups of young people as a problem, and
that is obviously linked to the lack of facilities and places
to go. Going back to the previous question, Eastbourne Foyer did
also say that the council there had tried to be quite forward-thinking
with regard to young people. They initiated setting up the foyer
as a flagship of the borough and also in partnership with the
local college, and they put it out to tender and they identified
that about 10 or 11 years ago, and so they were quite forward-thinking.
They also host the annual skate-boarding championships in Eastbourne,
and so they are actually trying to do things to cater for young
people in the town.
Q337 Lyn Brown: Can I take you on
from that. That is terrific, Eastbourne Council is obviously doing
its job, but can you tell us how this intergenerational conflict
manifests itself? Does it manifest itself by walking into a town
hall and voting for all things that are for those over 55 to do,
or does it manifest itself in any other way?
Ms Livingstone: Certainly complaints
about the foyer. Young people certainly report to us that if they
apply for jobs with the foyer as their address they will not get
a look in at an interview because of perceptions about what the
foyer does. Cromer Foyer highlighted that to me and said they
have had quite a lot of issues with a negative perception of their
young people, and what their foyers are trying to do, and in fact
they are holding an open evening tonight to invite people from
their local neighbourhood (and that is predominantly older people
in the surrounding area) into the foyer to try and demystify what
they do and what the young people are trying to do. So, the foyers
are proactively trying to change that perception, but I think
it is in the context of a wider issue about young people not having
places to go, there not being necessarily facilities for people
for young people to go to, and also the media is also whipping
that up as well. Again, that is a broader issue.
Q338 Lyn Brown: There is a foyer
in my constituency which does not have a "bad rep",
so do you think that this particular difficulty that the foyer
has with the perception about what it does and who it is catering
for is particularly in coastal towns, or do you think it is simply
an issue that is perhaps outside the cities?
Ms Livingstone: I think you are
probably right that it is more likely to be outside the cities.
It depends on where the foyer is physically situated as well.
Taking the example of Cromer, they have got a lot of older people
as their neighbours. Bath Foyer has the same thing. They are situated
in a cul-de-sac which has got sheltered housing in it. They did
have a number of issues with intergenerational conflict there
and the foyer undertook a project with the young people and the
older people, and the problems of milk bottles being taken from
doorsteps and things like that have actually dissipated because
they took that action. So, it is not specific to coastal towns,
but, obviously, with the population being older in coastal towns,
that does exacerbate it.
Mr Shimwell: Could I echo what
Sophie is saying there. I do not think it is just a coastal town
issue, I think the issue is of isolation, because lots of rural
areas face similar issues that the coastal towns face, but I do
think the disparity between rural, coastal and more urban areas
and young people comes back to young people being seen as a problem:
"We must find something for them to do." I think we
definitely need some more resources there. We cannot have young
people growing up in communities that are dying, literally.
Q339 Lyn Brown: I would like to take
you back to the question that Anne was asking. Given the problems
that you have described, what government action do you think needs
to be taken in order to help?
Ms Livingstone: We are trying
to talk to government at the moment in the run up to the Comprehensive
Spending Review. They are doing a review of the Children and Young
People's Policy with a view to coming out with a 10-year strategy,
and we have been feeding into that and highlighting the lack of
facilities issue with the hope that that will be recognised and
that there will be guidance to local authorities about that and
that funding will be directed in that way. There are obviously
other issues that young people in foyers face. Mental health issues
are a big issue for young people. Foyers across the board are
reporting to us that the young people who are coming to them are
younger, they have more acute needs, so there are a whole lot
of complex issues round that that government needs to be looking
at at a national policy level as well as on a local level. That
needs to be done in partnership.
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