Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440-453)
MS BRONWYN
HILL, MS
BRYONY HOULDEN,
CLLR JILL
SHORTLAND, MR
CHRISTOPHER IRWIN
AND CLLR
BERT BISCOE
7 JUNE 2006
Q440 Mr Betts: Can we get on to the
issue of whether we call them city-regions or sub-regions and
whether there is a case in this region for their development.
We talked to the West of England Partnership this morning and
had some discussion with them about whether they are a city-region
or a sub-region which happens to have a city in the middle. They
agreed there was something there which was an economic entity
that needed some government working relationship of some kind.
The argument then is whether Plymouth might or might not need
something, maybe Exeter, and then we have the issue in Cornwall
of what has been called a "distributed city-region"
potential. Can you tell us how that might start to work and whether
you would still need a region to pull all that together or will
it be separate?
Cllr Shortland: One of the things
we learned when we started the Regional Spatial Strategy process
was that the Government's intention was in planning for the future
Regional Assemblies should have regard to travel-to-work areas
and sustainability, particularly in terms of housing development,
and therefore look to the urban areas to increase the housing
rather than rural areas. Very, very early in the process the initial
consultation work that we did came back and said, "That is
madness in a rural area like the South West region". Just
for your information, in the South West region survey work that
we did over 90% of all residents said they recognised the South
West as being where they lived and of the Cornish 96% said that
they lived in the South West in terms of a region, so they do
know they are in the South West region. One of the things I want
to make clear is if we are going to have city-regions there would
only be the Bristol area that would be covered by the city-region.
There needs to be something for everywhere else. The South West
as a region has one of the largest void areas of the whole country
in terms of travel-to-work, and Chris might have a map showing
that with him today. Of course, the West of England Partnership
you met with and spoke to today have a huge travel-to-work cross
area. Here is the map which shows it all. The West of England
Partnership are quite right in saying they are pretty much okay
if whatever happens to them happens to them, but if you look at
the rest of the region there is this massive void that does not
show any population majority having a clear travel-to-work area.
The rural areas have a huge part to play in the South West region,
particularly small business, market towns and their hinterlands,
as well as the sub-regional partnership areas that are named in
the Regional Spatial Strategy. Whatever the final definition of
a city-region is, and we have not been given any kind of indication
as to what that really means but working on the basis of what
we know already, it would be wrong to assume that you can have
even the major joint study areas in the Regional Spatial Strategy
and ignore everything else, you have got to have something for
that hinterland area.
Ms Hill: I think Jill is right
that you cannot focus on Bristol only. I am not sure that city-region
is the right word once you move outside there. I think the Government
has recognised that there are other cities and towns in the South
West where the growth of their economies is quite important not
just for them as individual towns but for the wider areas they
serve. We are planning to have a summit to look at the issues
facing those smaller towns and cities. Again, it depends how you
count them because some of them are joined together. Bournemouth
and Poole, for instance, which by the way do produce a local transport
plan jointly, would be treated as one because there is conurbation
population of nearly 300,000. The key Cornish towns would also
be treated as an urban area in recognition of the fact that the
urban form is very different in Cornwall. We are hoping to have
that summit fairly soon to look at the specific issues facing
those cities and towns. It will not necessarily be the same as
those for Bristol and the West of England but there may be some
similarities.
Q441 Mr Betts: Cllr Biscoe, you have
got everything you want then, have you not?
Cllr Biscoe: We have got five
Cornish towns that each stand as towns being lumped together as
an urban unit in order to fit into a model of how to make policy
that Cornwall quite does not fit into: "How can we do that?
Oh, I know, we will lump those five towns together". Sometimes
it is seven, sometimes it is 15, sometimes it is 18, I have heard
so far. It does not make sense in terms of spatial planning for
Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly as a whole. What it means is
we have artificially created a principal urban area in order to
fit in with a model that has got nothing whatsoever to do with
us. You talk about disparities, this is one of the starkest examples
of how we are being moulded like plasticine to fit into a standard
model that does not apply to us. The results of this will be that
as time goes by if we do not do something about it we will end
up reversing all the progress we have made in Cornwall because
we will be moulding Cornwall to be something that it is not.
Mr Irwin: I just want to make
the point that there is no one right way. You need models that
reflect the function you are trying to address. To take the discipline
of transport, in this region in opinion poll after opinion poll
the paucity of public transport is identified, along with the
lack of affordable housing and low wages, as one of the prime
concerns of people in this region. We know that national policy,
sadly, is not delivering for us in this region. We know that local
policy, with the exception of Cornwall which stands out as having
remarkably strong transport provision, with the help of Objective
1 I hasten to say, overall neither local transport provision nor
national provision is working for us. If you look at the way the
market is working, you have got a single dominant operator in
the form of First Group with a railway franchise and a series
of bus operations that really point to concentration. We have
to tackle that because this is a matter of great concern both
to people living in the region and to those who think they understand
how to put the economy right.
Mr Betts: So actually getting some powers
to regulate the buses at local level with these partnerships might
be a good idea. I will not pursue that too far.
Q442 Dr Pugh: I will turn to the
Government Office now, if I may. Things are changing, are they
not, there is a new wind flowing through which talks about getting
more experienced staff, it is no longer a form of colonial government,
an advocate for the region, and so on. Are you happy and comfortable
with that? Have you got the resources to move in that direction
to acquire a new, more proactive role?
Ms Hill: I believe we have but
I think it will take us time to do it. I do not think we can make
the transformation overnight that the GO review envisaged. We
are working on our plans as to how we respond to that. As well
as the fact that the Office is becoming more strategic it also
relies on Government departments rationalising and reducing the
number of grant programmes we have to administer, for example.
Inevitably, in terms of our own staff we would want to do a lot
more learning and development to improve our capacity.
Q443 Dr Pugh: So in terms of supporting
that new role, the Government departments differ in the readiness
with which they embrace it and develop it?
Ms Hill: I think all of them have
signed up to it is the proper answer. The devil will be in the
detail and how it transforms over a period of two or three years.
To take an earlier example around Local Area Agreements, some
funding has been dovetailed into them from the Home Office that
would have been unthinkable two years ago. There are signs that
they are coming together and helping us be more joined-up and
supporting our work with local authorities.
Q444 Dr Pugh: In terms of expertise,
did you provide the administration for the development of the
regional transport priorities?
Ms Hill: Sorry?
Q445 Dr Pugh: Did you provide the
backing for that administration?
Ms Hill: It was a co-ordinated
exercise. The Government Office was asked to co-ordinate with
the RDA, the Regional Assembly and lots of other bodies, including
the counties and unitaries.
Q446 Dr Pugh: How many transport
experts have you got on site?
Ms Hill: There are eight people
in the transport team in the Government Office.
Q447 Dr Pugh: They are expert in
their field, are they, or are they simply in the team?
Ms Hill: We have a mix of expertise.
Some have more of a public transport background, some have more
of a roads background and some are support staff, so it is a mixture.
We do not have any people who are professional railway engineers
or timetabling experts.
Q448 Dr Pugh: Have you anybody with
a transport background?
Ms Hill: Yes, I have a transport
background. The director of the team has a transport background.
Personally, I am quite well off. I know Chris would like to have
more but I think we do very well.
Q449 Dr Pugh: Were you heavily dependent
on consultants?
Ms Hill: No. To tell you the truth,
with the help of the Regional Assembly we did employ consultants
originally to help us with a framework for doing a prioritisation
exercise but that was not successful for various reasons. It was
two members of my transport team in the Government Office who
came up with a different methodology which, with some work with
partners, has proved reasonably successful.
Ms Houlden: It is one of the examples
where partnership working has helped reinforce, if you like, where
there have been gaps in the organisation and we have used our
expertise well together. For the Assembly, in particular one of
the things it has done in particular is demonstrate the value
of our partner members. 70% of our members are elected councillors
but 30% are partners, and obviously Chris Irwin is one of those
partners and because he comes from a transport background he can
bring that expertise into the debate. We have pooled our resources
in a way that has made the process work effectively for us.
Q450 Dr Pugh: Going back to a specific
point, how many PSAs are you implementing in the Government Office
at the moment?
Ms Hill: I think it is roughly
40.
Q451 Dr Pugh: What is it going to
reduce to?
Ms Hill: I do not know because
departments have been asked to look at that in the Comprehensive
Spending Review.
Q452 Chair: Thank you very much for
your evidence. If there are issues which you think when you go
away you should have made as additional points then by all means
submit them as written evidence. We have found our two days in
the region extremely helpful, useful and interesting, not just
for the information it has given about the South West but in the
shaping of our thinking about the whole regional issue. Thank
you very much indeed.
Cllr Biscoe: Could I invite you
to come and have a look at the other side of Devon and see what
the view is like from there.
Q453 Chair: I have been to Cornwall,
and other Members have.
Cllr Biscoe: Let me show you.
Chair: Thank you.
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