Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 55)
MONDAY 21 MAY 2007
MR STEPHEN
DIDSBURY, AND
MRS JUDITH
TURNER
Q40 Mr Betts: When we are looking
at the finances of this we have to look also at the potential
savings on disposal that could arise from a reduction in waste
because people are being charged for collection.
Mr Didsbury: Yes, and whether
they are being charged for collection and disposal or just for
collection.
Q41 Mr Betts: Have you done any sums
on that to give us some idea what the total amount of current
costs are?
Mr Didsbury: The Institute has
done some work on looking at how it has worked in other countries.
They did that about two years ago and a revision of that has come
out recently. The difference between the continental system and
the British system is that basically the local authorities collect
all their revenue at a local base anyway and therefore it is a
lot easier to separate out the waste collection costs. Obviously
in the United Kingdom between 40 and 70% of a local authority's
expenditure is provided by the government.
Q42 Mr Betts: Can we take that as
a given, that the government will continue to fund at the same
level? You have given us the figure of £75 a year for the
average household to actually collect the waste. What is the total
cost?
Mr Didsbury: About £150 for
collection and disposal.
Q43 Mr Betts: There would have to
be some pretty substantial reductions in the amount of waste collected
to make any real impact on the average household bill.
Mrs Turner: You have to fund the
administration of it as well.
Q44 Mr Betts: Do you see, as a potential
adverse spin off of it all, that whatever local charging might
or might not be there will be some people will avoid paying them
and black bags will end up by the roadside to be collected in
due course?
Mrs Turner: Yes, and there is
some evidence of that in areas that adopted that policy of charging.
I think you have to look at where it exists in other places and
what legislation drives it. I think there will always be an opportunity
for people to choose that as an option and that is why the CIWM's
view is that if it is a power available to local authorities they
would have to take into account whether it was best value for
money to administer it because they are under a responsibility
to deal with taxpayers' money in the best possible way. There
are some concerns about the administration costs.
Q45 Martin Horwood: Waste collection
is one of the things that people do identify with local councils.
They recognise that this is one of the things they pay council
tax for. Are people not going to be justified in thinking first
of all that it is double taxation because they are paying their
council tax then they are paying a charge on top for waste collection?
Secondly, they are being charged when actually the real culprits
are the people who produce all the packaging and the waste in
the first place—which are the supermarkets, the retailers
and the manufacturers.
Mrs Turner: I think you are correct
in what you say. It is a waste cycle and obviously the waste cycle
starts with the production of that waste. There is an argument
about how you move from the production cycle to the householder
and their ability to pick up the costs of that packaging. I think
you also have to take into account as well that everybody is an
authority on refuse collection because everybody perceives that
that is a service they fundamentally get from the local authority.
For a lot of people that is right; they may not have children
so they do not have education et cetera. People are very,
very interested to look at how it is going to affect them and
I think we can only look at recent media attention on our industry
which has been a very valuable thing because it has raised the
profile of waste. It is very important that we start recognising
that waste is a commodity and a resource. It is very important
to the public and we do have to be very mindful of that.
Q46 Anne Main: Do you share my concerns
that the people who have the largest families and are perhaps
the youngest and on the lowest income maybe will have to pay the
most because they will be producing the most as a large family
as opposed to an individual who may be in a council tax band that
is quite a lot higher?
Mrs Turner: I think there has
to be criteria that address all sectors of the community, whether
it is people who produce large amounts because they are large
families or people who do not produce large amounts because they
are single pensioners living on their own.
Q47 Anne Main: It sounds as though
it could get terribly complicated.
Mrs Turner: That is the point
I made earlier, the administration would need quite a lot of attention.
I am one of nine so when we lived at home there would have been
quite a bit of waste.
Q48 Anne Main: Would you imagine
collecting the money upfront? Would you pay into a system where
you get taken off as your rubbish is weighed every week? How does
it work?
Mr Didsbury: It works in different
ways in different schemes. In Flanders there is a sack scheme.
You go to the supermarket and you buy your sacks which are marked
with the local authority, you use however many sacks you put out
so you buy them in advance. Other schemes do pay-by-weight in
which case you would be paying in arrears. You would probably
pay a standard service charge and then you pay the extra amount
for what you pay in the weight. The service charge would cover
some of the services. There are challenges in this. The Landfill
Directive is setting challenges for the country. That is being
translated into landfill allowances for local authorities whereby
we have to reduce how much we send to disposal. There is also
landfill tax going up by £8 a tonne. These are significant
challenges which have to be faced and both this and alternate
week collections may be tools which people need to use. We are
not saying that everybody has to use them but we do not have a
"leave it as it is" option; something has to change
to significantly shift waste into material that can be reused
in society.
Q49 Chair: Mr Didsbury, I think you
said in either your authority or an authority you know that waste
is collected two or three times a week from flats because there
is not enough storage facilities and weekly or fortnightly from
houses.
Mr Didsbury: Yes.
Q50 Chair: Has there not been any
public disquiet in your area that people living in houses are
paying rather more council tax than the people in flats but as
regards refuse collection in their view they will be getting a
poorer service?
Mr Didsbury: It is actually cheaper
to collect in bulk so actually the cost per property is probably
similar because you are collecting one large amount of waste in
one location rather than collecting small amounts of waste from
many locations. Cost-wise it might not be dramatically different.
Q51 Chair: Has there actually been
any public complaint?
Mr Didsbury: There has never been
any discussion about it at all.
Chair: There might be now they
know about it.
Q52 Martin Horwood: I just want to
follow up something you said which is that you need to find some
ways of shifting people towards more recycling. Is the evidence
of what has been done so far in the last 10 to 15 years that really
the biggest increase has come from just making it easier for people?
For instance, in my authority we do not yet collect cardboard,
we do not collect plastic bottles, we do not collect batteries,
we do not collect food waste on a doorstep basis. Surely if you
did that your percentages would shoot up? There is evidence that
93% of people have recycled in the recent past. People are prepared
to do it, it is very well known and very well supported. If you
just make it easier for people will that not push people into
recycling rather than the more confrontational approach which
is potentially going to undermine public support for recycling,
which is one of the least controversial bits of the local authority's
functions at the moment.
Mr Didsbury: If you provide a
comprehensive service you will get a larger amount recycled, but
how you get everybody involved is the next question. There is
an upper limit as to how far you can go.
Q53 Martin Horwood: There is another
group of producers of waste locally which are companies and schools,
both of which are charged at the moment. What is your view on
that? Do you think that inhibits them from recycling at the moment
or do you think it is acceptable?
Mr Didsbury: I think that is done
on an authority by authority basis on the schools. My authority
does not charge schools for either the waste or the recycling
collections, yet some of our schools are now recycling 70 to 80%
of their waste. That is because we have gone in there, worked
with the kids and they have introduced their own recycling. We
are encouraged by the Government to charge commercial premises
but make a reasonable charge. We also do commercial waste recycling
which is up to 40% reduction in cost on the normal commercial
waste charge so it is a choice then for the shop owner whether
he wants to recycle his waste or throw it away normally. Only
20% of our commercial customers have taken up the commercial rates
recycling even though they can save 40% of their money.
Q54 Martin Horwood: Why do you think
that is?
Mr Didsbury: Time. Most of our
customers are small or medium-sized enterprises; they have no
targets at the moment. They have better things to do with their
time than to separate. They have the financial advantage to do
it but they still have not taken it up. It is really to do with
culture; it will gradually come. Five to 10 years ago the amount
of recycling we are doing now would have been unheard of. We would
probably have been giving you evidence that we cannot get to 40%
recycling.
Q55 Martin Horwood: Would you be
fining them for not recycling enough?
Mr Didsbury: With the commercial
waste, it is their money they are throwing away. It is a matter
of how you encourage people. Again it is probably education and
you probably need someone who can go into shops and set up for
them. Once it is set up and once it has been proved it is as easy
as dealing with normal waste then they will probably do it.
Mrs Turner: I think Martin said
the same word as Steve just said, and that is we have to make
it easy.
Chair: That is a good point to stop.
Thank you very much.
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