Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
MONDAY 21 MAY 2007
CLLR PAUL
BETTISON AND
MR MARTIN
WHEATLEY
Q60 Mr Betts: Is this not like fighting
for a power that you have no idea whether it is going to be practical
to use and all the evidence we have had so far seems to indicate
that the figures are just going to stack up.
Cllr Bettison: I believe we are
the only country in Europe who does not do it.
Q61 Mr Betts: We might be the only
one that is right.
Mr Wheatley: There are a couple
of points there. First of all, as set out in our submission, the
cost to councils of disposing of non-recyclable waste is going
to go up. Secondly, as is known from other areas of consumer activity—for
example things like store loyalty cards—really quite small
amounts of money can persuade people to think and start to behave
differently.
Q62 Mr Betts: It is a question of
whether there is any saving at all when you add the administration
costs in. Can you name a country in Europe which actually has
collection costs and disposal costs as low as ours are?
Mr Wheatley: We could see if we
have those figures.
Q63 Mr Betts: I think it would be
interesting. We have just been quoted what other countries in
Europe do, so if that is the evidence we are going on in terms
of asking for the power to charge we should be looking at what
comparable costs are there and my understanding is that other
countries have generally much higher charges than £150.
Cllr Bettison: Other countries
are diverting much more of their waste away from landfill than
we are. We are landfilling more of our waste than any other country
bar two; I believe it is Greece and Portugal who actually landfill
more of their waste than we do.
Q64 Mr Betts: What would you do in
the system for people on council tax benefit?
Cllr Bettison: I am sure that
if a charging system were introduced there would be allowances
for people on benefits. It is rather like metering water. When
we have a supply of something that is finite and in danger of
failing to meet demand in the future it draws the attention of
people not to be wasteful with that resource if they are actually
paying as they use the resource.
Q65 Martin Horwood: In your submission
you suggest that if charging were to be introduced then that would
be balanced by a corresponding cut in council tax. Do you have
any examples from anywhere of a charging system being introduced
and leading to a resulting cut in the local taxation?
Cllr Bettison: Not from elsewhere
in Europe. There would be examples from other European countries
but we do not have them with us today.
Q66 Martin Horwood: Would you be
able to write to us with them?
Cllr Bettison: I am sure we could
do that.
Q67 Anne Main: With the water system
you only have one system or the other, you do not have both. My
concern is that you are going to run both. Are you in favour of
charging?
Cllr Bettison: I am in favour
of local authorities having that power. If you are asking whether,
if we had that power, I would use it in my authority, the answer
would have to be that I do not think I would. We already have
the power to take legal action against people who do not recycle
which actually seems to me to be much more draconian than the
power that is being requested here. In my authority again I have
not found the need to use it.
Q68 Mr Betts: What would you do if
someone simply refused to pay?
Cllr Bettison: If somebody could
not pay I am sure there would be a system as part of any charging
that would assist those people. If they would not pay then we
would deal with them, if we had such a charge, in the same way
as people who will not pay their council tax.
Q69 Mr Betts: Would you carry on
collecting their refuse in the meantime?
Cllr Bettison: That would have
to be a decision that would have to be taken locally.
David Wright: Are there any examples
where there are systems where you get a discount for the more
you recycle? Surely you need to turn this debate around and actually
say to people that the more they put into the recycling stream
the more money you will get back. When we used to have the old
pop bottles you returned for five pence a time the kids in our
neighbourhood would go around collecting them up to take them
back.
Q70 Chair: Do authorities have the
power to offer a discount in that way at the moment?
Cllr Bettison: I am told they
do have the power now, yes.
Q71 David Wright: That is the way
to tackle this issue surely, to actually incentivise people to
recycle more. The kids in my area would be roaming round the streets
looking for cardboard and bottles and taking them in if there
was a discount system.
Mr Wheatley: We would agree that
is one way, a system where councils were permitted to offer financial
incentives for higher recycling or lower landfill.
Q72 Mr Betts: It is simple logic.
This can apply to families as well. The larger family you are,
the more cardboard you are using and the more that goes into the
stream surely the bigger the discount you should get, that is
if you are putting more into the stream in terms of recycling.
Mr Wheatley: I think that is an
important counter-argument to the claim that is often made that
charging will bear most heavily on large families.
Q73 Chair: One of the questions that
often comes through from people, in particular when they move
from one area of the country to another, is confusion over what
they can recycle and what they cannot and what they put in what
coloured sack or bag or bin or whatever. Does the LGA have a view
about whether it might be beneficial to have a kind of national
agreed colour coding, not necessarily everything agreed but at
least so bins or sacks always have the same sort of stuff in them.
Cllr Bettison: If we were starting
from day one I am sure we would have a national colour code. Regrettably
we are not, we are starting with a system with bins that were
purchased years ago. In my case our landfill bins were purchased
eleven years ago when we actually chose green as the colour then
because we never imagined we would have multicoloured bins and
green just seemed to blend better with the hedgerows. Hence our
green waste now has to go into a brown bin. Yes, it can be confusing
but the media make a big issue about confusions. Maybe the media
have more than one home. Most people in this country only have
one home so they only have to come to terms with one set of colour
bins.
Q74 John Cummings: I am just wondering
how we can involve the prime proponents of waste, the supermarkets,
to act in a more responsible manner. Do you have any direct contact
through the LGA with the larger supermarkets? Would you look for
extra powers yourselves? Is it open to authorities to apply pressure
upon supermarkets either nationally or within their own locality
to act in a more responsible manner? We have talked about the
penalties placed on individuals who do not behave in a responsible
manner but surely the supermarkets—the main protagonists
of the problem we have at the present time—have an equal
responsibility to act in a responsible manner.
Mr Wheatley: The Chairman of the
LGA wrote earlier this year to the major supermarkets and following
that we are having some very productive discussions with executives
from supermarket chains about such matters as improving communication
between them and the local authority sector about how packaging
can be minimised and recycled, and encouraging them to think harder
about the role they could play for example in taking back materials
that they themselves produce. In addition the Association has
been calling for the powers that local authorities have to prosecute
and fine retailers for excessive packaging. We have been calling
for those powers to be clarified and the penalties to be increased.
Q75 John Cummings: Are you saying
that there is existing legislation to cover that particular issue
but it is not being enforced?
Mr Wheatley: There is existing
legislation but the maximum fine is £5000 and there are a
number of defences that a retailer could bring, for example consumer
acceptability which, where cases have been brought, have enabled
them to claim that the packaging was acceptable.
Q76 Chair: Have there been any successful
prosecutions?
Mr Wheatley: I believe there have
been four.
Q77 Chair: Do you have details of
them that you could let us have later?
Mr Wheatley: Yes, of course.
Q78 John Cummings: You suggest in
your memorandum that local authority waste spending will need
to rise by 10% a year between now and 2013. Could you tell us
to what extent does this affect collection authorities? What are
the main reasons why collection costs will rise?
Cllr Bettison: The costs are increasing
because in many authorities they are facing an increase in the
total amount of waste that is presented for collection and disposal.
Regrettably people are still producing more waste every year.
The other factor is that as local authorities strive to avoid
landfill charges—of course now the escalator is up to £8
per tonne per year (that is a very real increase in annual costs
for local authorities)—they can either pay the landfill
costs or try to introduce new methods of avoiding landfill by
introducing more recycling streams. Every time a new recycling
stream is introduced there are costs to do with the collection
and the arrangements for the disposal of those recyclates. The
other thing is that when the LATS scheme kicks in in 2010 local
authorities can face absolutely astronomical fines if they exceed
their due allowance of putting stuff into landfill. This is very
serious for local authorities because local authorities of course
are capped so in the event that a local authority incurs these
fines it does not have the opportunity of simply charging the
taxpayer for the fines, it will have to reduce services in order
to pay the fines, which of course brings us back to an earlier
question that this does regrettably hurt the most vulnerable people
first.
Q79 John Cummings: Are you saying
that it will rise by 10% yearly between now and 2013 if nothing
is done or will it be 10% a year if these measures you are talking
about come into operation?
Cllr Bettison: If nothing further
is done. It has been rising by that over the last years.
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