Examinatin of Witnesses (Questions 200-216
RT HON
LORD FALCONER
OF THOROTON,
QC
28 FEBRUARY 2007
Q200 Keith Vaz: Have you had Baroness
Prashar in?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I see
her regularly.
Q201 Keith Vaz: Have you discussed
this particular issue with her?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I have.
Q202 Keith Vaz: You are happy with
the assurance that she has given you?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am
happy that she is completely on top of the position and keen to
make sure it works well.
Q203 Chairman: If I could turn to
Judge Collins's comments on county courts, he stated that county
courts were operating on the margins of effectiveness and with
further cuts looming we run the risk of bringing about a real
collapse in the service. That is pretty serious.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I disagree
completely with what he is saying. There are various performance
targets in relation to county courts. Can I provide them to the
Committee? Between April 2006 and January 2007, 94.59% of processes
were dealt with within five days with a target of 94%. That has
dropped from 96.03% in the previous nine months to 94.59%. There
are marginal changes in relation to it. They are not changes that
in my view remotely justify the language of his honour Judge Collins.
It is in the context of there being pressure on resources which
means that bits of the system—indeed, all bits of the system—do
in some cases have a little less money.
Q204 Chairman: Do you think the industrial
dispute is a factor in the current situation?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Yes,
but the industrial dispute affects the whole court system. I do
not hear criminal court judges saying to me there is a prospect
of a collapse of the system. I do not hear family judges saying
to me there is a risk of a collapse of the system. I do not hear
judges in the High Court saying that. I very strongly reject what
his honour Judge Collins is saying. Yes, the position in relation
to resources is not perfect but almost every other bit of the
system is getting on and making it work. I do not think for one
moment that the statistics which I will supply the Committee with
justify the sort of remarks he has made.
Q205 Chairman: We will look at those
statistics with some interest. Some Members of the Committee went
to see the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre which was
a very interesting experience. When are you going to publish the
evaluation?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I do
not know.
Q206 Chairman: You can let us know.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: We
are definitely going to publish the evaluation.
Q207 Chairman: In November you announced
the creation of 10 new community courts. How will these follow
the North Liverpool model or will they really be the Salford model
where you do not have the single building; you do not have all
the other agencies on the spot and you do not have a single, dedicated
judge?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: You
have a single building in these other magistrates' courts. What
you do not have is accommodation for the CPS, the Housing Department,
et cetera in the same building. The essence and the success, we
think, of North Liverpool has been the extent to which the judge,
Judge Fletcher, has become accepted as both a part of the community
and somebody who understands what the community feels about things.
He has also been successful in, for example, making sure that
every day before his list starts there is a meeting of all the
professionals involved. In Salford on a Tuesday—it is only
one day a week and it covers only one bit of the Salford jurisdiction,
Eccles—they have a meeting before the case starts there.
The magistrates go out to the community and are making connections
with the community. The implication of your question is right
in this sense: we could not conceivably spend the millions on
the building that we did in North Liverpool in these other 10
places; but the community connection and the working together
of the agencies, which we believe is the essence of it, we believe
we can do and we are going to do in those 10 places. As I have
said publicly, I would hope to see that approach to justice adopted
right throughout every magistrates' court in England and Wales.
Q208 Chairman: It seemed to us that
the success of the Liverpool model was based partly on the fact
that it was a relatively self-contained community with very little
movement in and out. The same people could easily be brought back
before the judge, for example, to deal with their fine payments
and compliance with community sentences. Very considerable investment
had gone into the building so that it was possible to accommodate
all the agencies they needed to deal with, like housing and other
support agencies, and the judicial resources were also highly
concentrated and there were special arrangements made with the
High Court to make this possible. You could not replicate that
in the 10 places you listed in November. You were in danger of
raising false expectations for what could be achieved.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I hope
the Committee has the opportunity at some stage to go to Salford.
I hope you are not being over-influenced by the Law in Action
Programme which sought to draw the distinctions that you are drawing.
Q209 Chairman: We were impressed
by what we saw. Liverpool was very impressive.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I have
been to both Liverpool and Salford. They are very different in
their physical feel. You are absolutely right about the fact that
all the agencies are under the same roof but the ethos is very
similar. Eccles is the bit of Salford that the community court
there serves. There appears to be that same degree of connection
and that seems to me to be the critical point.
Q210 Chairman: I hope the evaluation
will be fairly soon.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Do
you want some material from me in relation to that? Of course
I will notify you of the date of the evaluation. Do you want some
material about the comparison between Salford and North Liverpool?
Q211 Chairman: If you want to supply
us with some more material, that would be very useful.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Would
you also like roughly where we have got to in relation to the
ten?
Q212 Chairman: Yes.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I was
hoping I could persuade you that you do not need to have all of
that expenditure on bricks and mortar and judicial resources to
deliver the essence of community justice. If you were going to
come to that view, there are other people who take the same view
as me who have a degree of expertise that I do not have.
Q213 Bob Neill: I imagine the one
thing that is key to it is the ability of the judge to deal with
them all under one jurisdiction?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That
has been incredibly useful, yes, sitting in the crown court as
well as the magistrates' court. Judge Fletcher would agree with
you in relation to that but he would not say it was critical.
What is the success of it? The sense that the court in the community
it serves is perceived to be a contributor to solving that community's
problems, not something completely remote and separate.
Chairman: In raising this question we
do not want to discourage the department from innovation. It seems
to us to be a very worthwhile experiment.
Q214 Mr Tyrie: I wanted to ask whether
you had any thoughts or views at all to express on reform of the
composition of the House of Lords.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I will
express views in relation to it on 12 and 13 March. My views are
quite well known. The Lords do an incredibly good job at amending
legislation and being a revising chamber. We should keep the same
powers. There should be an elected element in the House of Lords.
I do not believe introducing an elected element necessarily means
that you lose the right relationship between the Lords and the
Commons.
Q215 Mr Tyrie: What about the size
of the elected element?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I have
said 50/50.
Q216 Chairman: We shall see. Lord
Chancellor, thank you very much indeed. If indeed your responsibilities
extend, you may find yourself in front of us on a wide variety
of other matters.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I would
welcome the opportunity of coming back if there is any sort of
announcement.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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