Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 100)
TUESDAY 24 APRIL 2007
RT HON
BARONESS ASHTON
OF UPHOLLAND
Q80 David Howarth: But a lot of it
depends on estimations of how much time something takes and you
do not have to do it before saying how much time it would take,
this can be done in advance by an estimation of how much time
it might take. The Commissioner himself said to us that the process
of estimating the time which might be spent was "uncertain,
subjective and open to exaggeration, if not abuse". How would
the guidance change that problem which seems to me to be inherent
in relying so much on time estimates?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
One of the things we have been talking about is how far you are
very specific about the time that it would be expected to take.
It is possible to give a time, for example, of how we would expect
a file of 25 pages to be costed at. Just as we have costs of £25
per hour, the real cost is £34 but ministers are costed at
£25 an hour in any event. We could plan to create a very
clear regime of what it would cost. Part of the way in which one
would prevent any perceived abuse of this would be by being absolutely
transparent and the requester being able to see the transparency
with which this has been done so that if you were unable to get
the request refined, if it was clear that you were able to demonstrate,
and could demonstrate to the Information Commissioner ultimately,
that you had looked at the amount of work and costed it appropriately
in that sense, the amount of time it would take, then you were
in a sense able to use this regulation. These are exactly the
issues that we have been talking to those who are most concerned
about making sure—they may not want us to do it at all but
suspending that for a moment—if this were to be, that we
do it in a way that is open and transparent, clear and does not
enable people to misuse it.
Q81 David Howarth: May I just stress
the point about all this happening in advance of any real consideration
going on? It is not a question of getting people's timesheets
and saying this officer spent this much time reading. It is an
estimation in advance of anyone doing anything that officers will
take this time. How is that going to work?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Certainly it is possible to do that on reading time because, if
you take the Treasury example I gave, if there were 95 sets of
files, it would be very possible, simply on the basis of a costing
exercise that we could put in place, to say that if you have 5,000
sheets of paper which have to be read by somebody, then it is
reasonable to suggest it takes X amount of time to read a sheet,
therefore that is reasonable to cost it at this.
Q82 David Howarth: What about consideration?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Consideration time is very important and again we need to look
at how you can seek to do that. As a minister, in the course of
the Freedom of Information Act coming into being and my life in
DCA, because all of the considerations come to me, I was trying
to remember how many times I have actually been asked to consider
things, usually to confirm that the public interest test is met
and section 36 and so on. I think I added it up to 15 minutes
in two and a half years or something of that order. It is the
quality of my officials you understand and the work they give
me, but consideration time in many cases can be very short. In
some cases it would be longer because there are issues of concern.
Again, as we get better at this it gets less. We are looking to
do exactly the same thing with consideration time, trying to put,
as far as we possibly can, examples of what we would expect to
see and so on and at the end of the day, if those were not considered
to have been met then the Information Commissioner would be person
who would decide.
Q83 Chairman: We touched earlier
on the Information Commissioner's additional workload that might
arise from this. You seemed to be saying then that because his
workload would decline in other ways as practice developed, it
would all be covered by that. That is clearly not his view.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
No, of course it is not his view and I was not trying to imply
that directly. What I was saying was that the Information Commissioner
quite reasonably looks at anything that might change and the implications
for his workload. The point I was making, obviously not very well,
was that in the evidence he gave to the Committee he was also
pointing out that in other areas he would expect the workload
to decrease because appeals, we trust, will decrease and so on.
Obviously the Information Commissioner's Office have become more
adept at being able to tackle and deal with the queries and appeals
that they get. I was trying to say that in the generality of his
workload, I am mindful of anything we do and the implications
for him, but I also have to put that in the context of what is
happening more generally and the success that he has had in the
steady state that he has achieved and the work he has undertaken.
I was not suggesting for a minute that I was not very aware of
his concerns and we would not have to factor those in. Absolutely.
Q84 Keith Vaz: Has he not asked for
an increase in resources? He must have come to ministers and said
at your meetings that you have with him that he needs more resources
because of the increased workload.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Certainly when the consultation finishes and when—
Q85 Keith Vaz: No. Has he? Has he
approached ministers and said to ministers that he needs more
money to deal with this because he needs more resources? The Chairman
has just said that when he came to give evidence to us he was
very clear.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I was not evading the question. I was saying no, he has not specifically
said to me that he wants more money because as yet we have not
finished the consultation. What I was actually going to say was
that when the consultation is over, if he believes there are resource
implications, I am sure that he will talk to us about resources.
Q86 Chairman: Last time he told you
that his workload was increasing at a rate which required further
resources you did not give him the further resources.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
We gave him some further resources and we were looking, as you
will recall, for him to achieve what he has been successful in
doing, which was looking as efficiencies within his own Office.
He looked at getting external advice to achieve that and he has
had increases in resources. I am sure that he would say that he
would like to see further resources available, but we are very
pleased with the work he has done and the way in which he has
managed to move us to what I would describe as a steady state.
Q87 Keith Vaz: Let us be absolutely
clear. The Information Commissioner has not approached ministers
either formally or informally and asked for an increase in resources
to do his job. He has not done this, by letter, by memo, by email,
in conversation.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
In relation to these regulations?
Q88 Keith Vaz: In relation to the
regulations or anything else.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Let me be clear in return. The Information Commissioner has made
it perfectly clear to me that should these regulations come into
force, he will seek additional resources. He has not formally
requested them because the regulations have not come into force.
Q89 Keith Vaz: But has he informally
done it, over a cup of tea?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
More formally than that. He has certainly made it clear that he
would be looking for more resources; I am not trying to mince
words. It is purely that he has not formally requested it because
we are not at that point yet.
Q90 Keith Vaz: Do we have a timetable
for the introduction? The DCA must have hundreds of reviews. Whenever
ministers come before this Committee, they are always reviewing
something or the other. Do you have a timetable for this review?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
We are always reviewing things because it is very important that
Government keep things under review.
Q91 Keith Vaz: Maybe it is because
it is not being run very well.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
It is being run extremely well.
Q92 Keith Vaz: You would say that,
would you not?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Of course I would, but I say it with hand on heart, believing
it to be completely true. We have said that 21 June is when this
second consultation is completed.
Q93 Keith Vaz: Thursday 21 June.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I do not know whether it is a Thursday, but I bow to your superior
knowledge.
Q94 Keith Vaz: I can tell you that
it is a Thursday. So that is the day.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I presume it is a significant date for you in that case.
Q95 Keith Vaz: It will be a significant
date for you and that is the day it is going to be completed.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
That is the day the consultation is completed.
Q96 Keith Vaz: So how long are you
going to take? You are in the middle of all this reorganisation
in the Ministry of Justice/Department for Constitutional Affairs,
are you not?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
The Ministry of Justice will come into being on 9 May.
Q97 Keith Vaz: So how long after
21 June is it going to take to review this, to consider what has
happened as a result of the consultation?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
All I can say at this stage is that I gather I have three months
in order to put my formal response to the consultation in the
public domain. That will be the determining timetable for this.
After that, the regulations will go forward to Parliament.
Q98 Chairman: So if there are to
be new regulations we are into the next parliamentary session
not the current one.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
It is possible to see the regulations coming in before the end
of the session.
Q99 Keith Vaz: How? If you have had
a consultation and you are to respond on 21 September—
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I have to respond before 21 September. I am merely describing
possibilities; I am not talking in certainties. It is feasible
that it could happen.
Chairman: When you have responded you
then have to draft the regulations and bring them to and get them
through both Houses of Parliament.
Q100 Keith Vaz: And find the money
for the Information Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I said "feasible", I did not say "certain".
Chairman: I may say by way of conclusion
that I welcome the fact that there is a further consultation and
it may well be run out, but if this problem can be resolved, it
might not be by the methods you originally proposed. That remains
to be seen so we shall watch this space. Thank you very much indeed.
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