Examination of Witnesses (Questions 500
- 519)
500. In order to get at the number who use ticket
hall C, part of that number of 23,550 that I mentioned a moment
ago, do we see that in column C, line three?
(Mr Weiss) Yes, absolutely. You need to add
the two figures to come to the larger figure that you came to.
501. Yes, and there are also 300-odd who appear
to use ticket hall A, as we see from column C at line one. If
you would now turn to the 42,000 National Rail passengers who
exit the station, they are, of course, not the only ones who exit
the station. Who else do the Committee need to concentrate on?
(Mr Weiss) We need to concentrate on the National
Rail passengers who use London Underground and ticket hall C.
502. What I am inviting you to do is go back
to table 1 to identify the numbers of passengers who are exiting
the station altogether in 2001. We have got the 42,200 National
Rail passengers. What are the other two components of the total
number that you mentioned earlier of 68,300?
(Mr Weiss) If I draw the Committee's attention
to column B, lines two and three, you have the two figures of
15,300 and 10,800 of those people who are leaving the station
but arriving respectively from the Central line and the subsurface
lines.
503. Anyone can see, but I will just mention
it for the record, that those numbers total 26,100; is that right?
(Mr Weiss) That is correct.
504. I mentioned earlier that 68,300 passengers
therefore exit the station in the morning peak. That is table
1. We see that at column B, line five. So that the Committee can
then get a feel for where it is that these 68,300 exiting passengers
actually go, would it be helpful to turn up your exhibit A, which
is the same document, sir, that I introduced in opening, and it
looks like this (indicating) and which you will find in the City
of London bundle of exhibits at tab 16?[3]
The Committee suspended from 3.02 pm to 3.15
pm for a division in the House
505. Mr Laurence: Mr Weiss, I was asking
you about that number of 68,300 exiting passengers comprising
partly National Rail passengers and the remainder people coming
of the Underground, and I was inviting the Committee's attention
to exhibit A with a view to marking the exits. The Octagon Arcade—can
we call that number 1, the way out to Broadgate? Over on the other
side, the way out to Bishopsgate—can we call that number
2? Exits 3A and 3B, respectively the escalator and the stairs,
shown as a way out to Old Broad Street: that also leads to Liverpool
Street, I think.
(Mr Weiss) If I may explain for
the benefit of the members, I have said "Old Broad Street".
It is actually obliquely the other side of Liverpool Street. Liverpool
Street, of course, is an east-west street that goes not only in
front of Liverpool Street station but alongside the building in
front, so to avoid confusion we have called it Old Broad Street,
but technically it leads to Liverpool Street first.
506. Then, although not shown on your drawing,
Mr Weiss, so that the Committee can follow the numbers you are
about to give them, exits 4 and 5 are at a higher level, are they
not, and are respectively exits to the bus station and an exit
towards Sun Street?
(Mr Weiss) That is correct.
507. In order therefore just for the Committee
to get a feel, although they would have got that this morning
already, of how the exiting passengers that we have been talking
about reach the street via these various exits, did you have recourse
to the numbers given in the Liverpool Street Interchange Study
of 2002?
(Mr Weiss) We did, sir. We did this study because
as a local authority, conscious of the very large numbers of people
who have business in and around the station, reminding ourselves
that we have no real business in the station as a local authority,
our control really stops at the edge, we were looking to find
out how best to accommodate interchange in the public realm, and
this is cycling, walking, buses, mobility impaired, so that those
people leaving the station by whatever mode and with whatever
needs were properly provided for.
508. So give the Committee if you would, by
reference to those various exit numbers, the figures thrown up
by that study.
(Mr Weiss) Certainly. Exit 1, which is to the
west, the Octagon Arcade, some 21,000 people went there in the
morning peak. Exit 2 towards Bishopsgate, which is to the right,
this is the exit to the east, some 25,000, the largest element
by far. Exit 3A, which is the escalator, 8,000 used that. Next
door to and leading to the same destination as the escalator on
3B, the stairs took 7,300. Exits 4 and 5 together were running
at about 3,800. This totals a figure of 65,100. It does not equate
exactly to the CLRL figure as used in their matrices of 68,300
but, being based on 2002, the relationship between the splits
and the approximate figure remain the same, so the principle of
where people wanted to go to stands with what CLRL produced and
that which we observed independently in 2002.
509. What is the real purpose of giving the
Committee those numbers?
(Mr Weiss) We are dealing with exit flows of
21,000 and 25,000 to discrete areas—the sheer business and
usage that large numbers of people regularly, each and every weekday,
using the station.
510. Finally, on these numbers that involve
the use of the tables that I handed in in my opening, and the
2001 table in particular, Mr Weiss, would you like to say something
about the figures that are relevant as illustrating how many passengers
use London Underground?
(Mr Weiss) If we go to table 1, London Underground
is used by 26,100. To remind the Committee, this is column B,
lines two and three.
511. That is those who exit the street. What
about those who enter the Underground system, where do we need
to look for that figure?
(Mr Weiss) There are 23,500 entering the system.
This is table 4.
512. Table 2, I think. Sorry to correct you.
(Mr Weiss) Table 2, column B.
513. 23,500?
(Mr Weiss) Correct.
514. By my arithmetic, a total of 49,650 people
in the morning peak using the Underground system. If we then want
to know in relation to that how many use ticket hall B, let us
take those who exit first, what is the number?
(Mr Weiss) If we turn to column 4.
515. Table 4.
(Mr Weiss) My apologies, table 4. We look at
the exits, ticket hall B, which is the second line down running
horizontally, we can see some 9,000 leaving ticket hall B, 18,100
entering ticket hall C, 9,600 exiting.
516. Total for ticket hall B, including the
4,200 who interchange, 31,300 out of a total of 53,850 for all
three ticket halls?
(Mr Weiss) That is correct. Once again, this
is stressing the relationship of how much busier ticket hall B
is than ticket hall A or ticket hall C.
517. Turning back to your proof of evidence
please at 2.2.3, I do not think we have got any tables to illustrate
this but can you tell the Committee what the corresponding figure
for use of the Underground station is in the evening peak?
(Mr Weiss) Certainly, Sir. The corresponding
figure for the use of the Underground station in the evening peak
is slightly larger at 52,000 passengers.
518. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Can we ask
where that is in the submission, Mr Laurence?
519. Mr Laurence: You do not have that
number on the table, Sir. It is just to get a feel for what the
position is in the evening as compared with the morning peak.
3 Committee Ref: A2, British Land plc-Liverpool Street
Station Plans-Exhibit A (LONDLB-26-003). Back
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