Examination of Witnesses (Questions 2040
- 2059)
2040. That is another matter where there are
discussions going on that you hop will result in an agreement
that is satisfactory to the Corporation.
(Mr Smith) We would hope so, sir.
2041. Mr Smith, we have heard about the parking
issue, in particular, at Billingsgate. Is it right that those
issues in relation to Smithfield but with the exception of the
particular issue relating to the work that has to be done in the
basement of the eastern market are, to a large extent, common
at Billingsgate as well?
(Mr Smith) We have similar concerns at Smithfield,
especially around the Lindsey Street area where we lose 30 parking
spaces and we are in discussion with the Promoter about how this
may be mitigated. It is, nevertheless, a serious problem.
2042. The answer is there are similar concerns
at Billingsgate to those that you have described at Smithfield.
Is that right?
(Mr Smith) Correct.
2043. If you turn to your conclusions at paragraph
53, I see you refer there to the regulations that you have already
mentioned. Is there something that you want to say about the threat
from noise and vibration at all?
(Mr Smith) Yes. If I could ask the Committee
to turn to tab 8, where we have a list of subjects under discussion,
we have raised this in our Petition and in the response to our
Petition the Promoter indicated that they would be carrying out
a site specific survey both at Billingsgate and at Smithfield
and they would let us have the results for this Committee, and
indeed we got them last night. So we now have them and just need
a little bit of time to assess them. We have experience at Billingsgate—if
I can start with Billingsgate—recently at the works across
the water from the market where they are building Barclays Tower,
within the market in sight of the building, the noise was very
considerable and very disturbing to the people working there.
The Crossrail site being inside the dock itself, where they are
building the coffer dam and the island, will be that much closer
and we believe that there is plenty of potential for that noise
to become unbearable for the people working in those offices,
and it is not just the administration staff we actually have a
seafood school down in Billingsgate that operates every day of
the week, both as a charity and as a commercial enterprise. We
believe it may be necessary to have double or triple-glazing on
the windows to make it bearable, and if so that means you would
not be able to open the windows in the hot weather. So we may
need to have air conditioning installed as well. Looking at Smithfield,
not only do we have the offices above the trading floor but above
those offices we have 16 commercial offices which operate during
normal working hours. Those are for people who have nothing to
do with the market, they are just ordinary commercial operations.
The noise and vibration from the work has the potential to make
those offices untenable. We are in discussion with the Promoter
on those matters.
2044. Thank you, Mr Smith. With that, subject
to anything you want to say in conclusion in a moment, there is
just one other matter I would like to ask you about, please. It
is conveniently set out at tab 9 of your exhibits, under the description:
"Issues of Concern to the Smithfield Meat Traders' Association".
What that document, at tab 9, is is this, is it not, Mr Smith?
It is a current draft of the undertakings sought by the SMTA as
part of their Petition due to be heard, I think, in some weeks'
time before this Committee. Is that right?
(Mr Smith) It is, sir, yes.
2045. You have had an opportunity, briefly,
to consider that document, and I think you have agreed just to
offer your observations in relation to those of the provisions
in that draft document which the Corporation feels it can usefully
comment on, of which the first is number four, under the heading
"Highways". I suppose I should read the context, which
is this: "SMTA seek, in addition to the undertakings offered
in the Response to the Petition, the following amendments to the
Bill or undertakings to the same effect from the Secretary of
State or the Promoter:" (I am not proposing to go through
all these, sir, because this is another Petitioner.) Under 4,
the first of about five extracts I will be referring to: "That
reasonable endeavours are used through negotiations with the Corporation
of London or otherwise to secure the establishment of additional
loading bays in substitution for any lost on Lindsey Street in
the Rotunda or Carthusian Street." The Corporation has no
difficulty with that, has it?
(Mr Smith) That seems reasonable.
2046. Eight: "Subject to the above and
before exercising any of the powers conferred by Schedule 3, para
5(1) in relation to West Smithfield, Long Lane, Snow Hill, Charterhouse
Street and Square, Carthusian Street or Lindsey Street, and for
the purposes of any relevant traffic management plan the nominated
undertaker will consult the highway authority and SMTA as stakeholder
about the exercise of the powers and have regard to and in so
far as is reasonably practicable adopt any proposals that better
protect the operation of the market." Same comment?
(Mr Smith) Yes. One of our primary aims is
to protect the operation of the market and we work very closely
with the SMTA to do so.
2047. At 15, over the page: "That reasonable
endeavours are used through negotiation with the Corporation of
London or otherwise to ensure that: (a) the market's traders and
customers have priority use of the basement car parks (the market
is not the operator of the car parks) during the main hours of
operation of the market (between 10pm and 10am)." So that
is something the Corporation is happy with?
(Mr Smith) We can certainly live with that
and it makes a lot of sense.
2048. I understand there is a qualification
to (b), though, relating to whether you have powers under the
Highways Act to do what is here sought, but I will read it out.
"In so far as there is any excess demand for parking from
the market's traders and customers they are provided with suitable
alternative parking by the reallocation of existing kerbside spaces
or otherwise." Is the position this: that subject to any
constraints that may be imposed on you by the Act I have just
mentioned a moment ago, the Corporation can see its way clear
to assisting with that too?
2049. (Mr Smith) That is true,
though there may in reality be a conflict with four because there
is only a limited amount of road space around that area. So if
we are going to increase the number of loading bays we may not
be able to increase commensurately the number of parking spaces.
2050. Finally, can I refer to page 5 under the
heading "Structural Impacts"? I do not want to take
time reading all of this out. Are you able to offer a sort of
general comment on what it is that the Corporation would be saying
about 22, 23 and 24. Perhaps 24 is the one I ought to read because
I think we are looking for something rather stronger than that.
"That the nominated undertaker will prepare a detailed design
for the permanent relocation of the services currently situated
in the market basement and detailed method statements for the
relocation of all of those services including provision for full
back up services to be provided until replacement plant is fully
commissioned and operational, all in consultation with the Corporation
of London and SMTA as stakeholder." That makes it look as
if that is all that would have to happen as far as the Corporation
is concerned. Is that, in fact, the position of the Corporation
on that issue?
(Mr Smith) I would support paragraph 24, sir.
We are actually in discussion with them at the moment about the
replacement of the plant. They have undertaken in their response
to the Petition to do so and I believe we will come to a sensible
solution.
2051. Can I just check (because I am leading
you, I know, but I hope in order to shorten things that will be
acceptable) my understanding is that mere consultation is not
something which the Corporation would be satisfied with on this
particular issue.
(Mr Smith) Correct. If we are looking at this
as a Corporation piece of paper, I would say we would wish to
agree the plans and how they are going to do it.
2052. In order to shorten this still further,
sir, can I just say, as regards number 23, we do not have any
difficulty with that as I understand it, and as regards number
22, insofar as it is consistent with the Heritage Deed on which
we are still in negotiation with the Promoter, that is the kind
of thing one would expect to see. The role envisaged for the Corporation
is one the Corporation would be happy with. I think once again
the actual level of protection that the Corporation is going to
be seeking goes beyond mere consultation, does it not, Mr Smith?
(Mr Smith) That is correct. From
our point of view, we wish to have a greater degree of say in
the final solution.
2053. So it is right to say that we have reason
to hope that that will result in agreement at the end of the day
which is why we are not troubling your Committee any further with
that and other issues that I have mentioned through Mr Smith.
Mr Smith, there is still Mr Pearman to come who is going to be
dealing with a specific issue to do with the eastern end of the
market structure at Smithfield. For this Committee, is there anything
else that you would like to record before I tender you for such
cross-examination as Mr Mould may feel is necessary and desirable?
(Mr Smith) Noting that you are going to be
hearing from Mr Pearman about the structural issues, I think we
have covered all the main points that we are concerned about.
Our main concern is all the aspects of actually maintaining the
continued, uninterrupted, hygienic and safe operation of these
two markets.
2054. Mr Laurence: Thank you, Mr Smith.
2055. Chairman: Mr Mould?
Cross-examined by Mr
Mould
2056. Mr Mould: Mr Smith, I am not going
to ask you any questions about that Billingsgate car park at this
stage in the light of the exchanges which occurred a few moments
ago and, given, as I understand it, Mr Pearman is going to deal
with the other, if I may put it this way, matter which is at the
business end of your Petition today, I do not think I am going
to be thanked if I take too much time now asking you questions
about matters which, as you say, happily are the subject of continuing
discussions and negotiations between yourselves and the Promoter.
However, it may be helpful just to give a flavour of the, I hope
you will agree, essentially positive approach that the Promoter
is taking towards the interests of Smithfield and indeed Billingsgate
markets. You would accept that that is a fair way of characterising
that?
(Mr Smith) I think a select committee
has a wonderful way of focusing people's minds!
2057. I am not sure whether I ought to be provoked
by that point! I will be self-effacing anyway and resist the temptation,
but there it is! Perhaps, to give some sense of how we say, with
respect, we are trying to be helpful whilst at the same time seeking
to draw the right balance between the genuine and reasonable needs
of the project, I could just invite Mr Fry to put up page 47 of
the Petition response document to the Corporation. This is a response
to the City's very concerns about the continued operation of the
market and, Mr Smith, I think we can just look at two paragraphs
here. Paragraph 1, in relation to vehicular access, the Promoter
has stated that he will require the nominated undertaker to maintain
vehicular access around the market at all times. There is an assurance
which faces up to, without qualification, the first of the two
particular points that you spoke of to my learned friend during
the course of your evidence-in-chief, does it not?
(Mr Smith) Yes, it does.
2058. Now, how that is achieved of course may
require some careful thought, but that is the assurance which
the Secretary of State has given to the City and, through this
response, to Parliament.
(Mr Smith) I think the only comment I can make
is that yes, it is a statement of intent and it is the `how' that
matters.
2059. That is of course the matter which is
the subject of continuing positive negotiation.
(Mr Smith) Indeed.
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