Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4328
- 4339)
4328. Chairman: Can I start by reminding
everybody here that at around about 11.30 or shortly after I will
be suspending the Committee for about 15 minutes so that anybody
who is either working or visiting here can go along the corridor
to get themselves a cup of tea or coffee. I want to re-emphasise
to people that 15 minutes is quite a long time to take out of
the Committee so if they can not hang around in the corridor,
but really just be back here.
4329. Today the Committee will continue to hear
the Petitions of the London Borough of Islington, the Confederation
of British Industry, the Union Bank of Switzerland and GMS Estates.
Ms Lieven?
4330. Ms Lieven: Thank you, sir. I am
dealing with the Petition of the London Borough of Islington and
I think this is largely a good news story, if I can explain to
the Committee where we are. First of all, the Committee will remember
what is described as the Flatiron Building at 38 Charterhouse
Street, which was otherwise described as Fox and Knot Street.
Islington appeared on 7 and 8 February, and on 8 February I indicated
to the Committee that the Promoters would go away and consider
that part of the project and see whether there was any way of
saving the building. The Promoters have indeed done that and have
talked to Islington about it, and I am happy to be able to tell
the Committee that we have been able to draw up an amended scheme
that will allow the building to be saved.[1]
4331. I am afraid I have not checked the transcript
to check which Members were here on 7 February, so just to explain
very briefly in the light of this drawing, the grey shaded area
is 30 Charterhouse Street, the building that the Committee was
concerned to see whether it was possible to preserve. The large
circle is the escape shaft necessary for the Farringdon Eastern
Ticket Hall, and, without wishing to spend too much time on this,
what has happened is that the shaft has shifted two metres to
the east.
4332. The position is, sir, that engineeringly
we are content that that is possible. It will cost more money—we
think up to £2 million; it will also, somewhat unfortunately,
require an additional provision because land that was only to
be acquired at surface level will now need to be acquired at sub-surface
level as well. We have got ministerial approval to seek an additional
provision, assuming that that is what the Committee would want
us to do. What we would suggest to the Committee, making the assumption
that the Committee wants us to save the building through this
mechanism, is that we will later in the summer promote an additional
provision that will allow us to do this but we will do it in that
timescale because we want to try to ensure that any additional
provisions that are required are swept up together with any more
than are already in the pipeline. When I say "later in the
summer" I should make it clear what we mean is before the
summer recess. We would hope, at that stage, to be able to put
together any additional provisions that are required and do them
all in one go. As I understand it, that is a provision that is
agreed with Islington and they are content with. We hope that
that leaves everybody happy on 38 Charterhouse Street.
4333. Can I then move on to the other issue,
which is that Islington were concerned about the level of integration
between the Thameslink 2000 and the Crossrail station. That was
the issue that they were intending to bring to the Committee this
morning. Now, those of the Committee who were here on 7 February
may remember my saying, briefly in opening, that there was a very
complicated relationship at the Farringdon Western Ticket Hall
between Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail. To encapsulate it, when
the Crossrail project was being worked up in 2002 it was assumed
that Thameslink 2000 would be well under way by the time Crossrail
came along. That assumption proved to be incorrect; Thameslink
2000 has been delayed, so the scheme being promoted before this
Committee is for a ticket hall for Crossrail at Cardinal House.
Islington were concerned that there was insufficient integration,
and I am happy to tell the Committee that we have reached an understanding
with Islington on various different scenarios that might happen,
depending on the timing of the two schemes and on what level of
effort will be made to make an acceptable ticket hall.
4334. It is, at the moment, a Memorandum of
Understanding. We only reached that agreement about 15 minutes
ago. What we would propose to the Committee is that neither side
will present evidence or say any more this morning. That Memorandum
of Understanding will be taken away by the lawyers and turned
into an undertaking. It was not possible to get it into quite
the right legal form this morning. So formally Islington will
adjourn that Petition but there are no issues between us—it
is literally just turning it into a legal document. The reason
I have done this all shortly and orally rather than showing the
pictures is that the Committee does not need to concern itself
with the rather complicated issues around the two ticket halls.
I hope that is a satisfactory way forward.
4335. Chairman: Mr Honey, are you okay
with that?
4336. Mr Honey: Yes, sir. If I can just
respond to those two points very briefly. On the first one, in
relation to No 38, we are very pleased to note that those proposals
have ministerial approval. Indeed, Islington Council supports
them as well, so we would therefore urge the Committee to give
their assent to that and welcome it as a step forward. As far
as that is concerned, we anticipate that there will be an adequate
resolution when the additional provisions are promoted, but, sir,
we just say that we reserve our position to come back in the unlikely
event, for whatever reason, that the additional provisions are
not promoted successfully. All I would simply note, at this stage,
is that now that the building at No 38 Charterhouse Street does
not need to be demolished under these proposals, the other alteration
to be made is to omit the building from Schedule 8, which is the
list of buildings to be demolished in the conservation area. So
that will need to be the other measure which will need to come
along as well as the additional provision to the Fox and Knot
Street worksite. So, sir, we would urge the Committee, on behalf
of those in Islington, to welcome this as a step forward.
4337. On the Western Ticket Hall, I can be very
brief on this, sir, and just say simply that we have reached an
understanding which we believe can be firmed up into a legally
binding undertaking, and expect that can be done. On that basis,
we do not believe there is any need to trouble the Committee with
the evidence today. Indeed, we hope we would not need to come
back at all. On that basis, sir, we would ask for your consent
to adjourning the hearing, as the Promoter has suggested, to allow
the undertaking to be completed between the Agents, in anticipation
of this being an end to the matters that Islington petition.
4338. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Ms Lieven, can I say, on the last point, we do not have any difficulties
at all. On the former point, the £2 million extra provision,
I cannot, from the Chair, here today authorise that. We, as a
Committee, will meet in private to discuss that and, also, liaise
with the Department, and we will let you know, but I see no reason
to delay the Committee at all and accept the proposals put forward.
4339. Ms Lieven: Sir, as far as the £2
million is concerned, it is obviously, ultimately, a matter for
the Department; it is a matter for ministers to take into account
very carefully in deciding whether or not to agree to promote
such an additional—
1 Crossrail Ref: P59, Fox & Knot Street Shaft
38 Charterhouse Street Retained Worksite Layout Stage 2 (ISLNLB-20804-056). Back
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