Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4580
- 4599)
4580. Chairman: Can I remind people that
if we are here at 11.30 this morning I am going to suspend the
Committee for 15 minutes or so in order that people here, visiting
or working, can partake of liquid refreshments. Today we are going
to hear the petitions of British Land plc and Salisbury House
Offices Limited. Ms Lieven.
The Petition of British Land plc
Mr Neil Cameron appeared on behalf of the Petitioner.
Bircham Dyson Bell appeared as Agent.
4581. Ms Lieven: Sir, can I start by
thanking the Committee very much for the extra time, which I am
happy to say has been productive in the case of British Land.
British Land were coming to talk about two things this morning:
first of all, to give a brief update of where we were in discussions
on Liverpool Street, which they still intend to do, which I will
leave to Mr Cameron in moment; and also to discuss an issue around
service of notice to treat and I understand that the position
of British Land on that matter now is that they are content to
tell the Committee that they will not be raising it before this
House. I will leave it to Mr Cameron to put it in precisely his
own words. The time that has been given to us has been useful,
sir, and I am very grateful to the Committee.
4582. Mr Cameron: I am also grateful,
sir, and I suspect that you will be even more grateful that we
are not pursuing our point. Sir, can I explain that I appear this
morning on behalf of British Land in relation to their remaining
petitioning points—and by that I mean the non-Liverpool
Street petitioning points. I also appear this morning on behalf
of British Land and the City of London Corporation in relation
to Liverpool Street. I do not anticipate taking very long on that,
it is just to update you on what has actually been happening.
Sir, can I deal first with British Land's position and then deal
with the Liverpool Street position next? As far as British Land
is concerned there are remaining issues between British Land and
the Promoter, but agreement has been reached on a substantial
number of issues. We have not yet managed to conclude an undertaking
but there is a draft in circulation.
4583. Sir, there are four points on which we
do not anticipate satisfactory resolution will be achieved. I
will tell you what they are but I am then going to tell you that
we do not intend to pursue them in this House, but reserve our
position to pursue them in the other House if needs be. There
is a parcel of land in front of 100 Liverpool Street, which you
will probably remember—it is called parcel 116, but I am
not going to refer to the plan—and that is a parcel on which
the Promoter requires the right to defer utilities. British Land,
so far as their interests are concerned, are prepared to give
them the right to do that, and therefore British Land say that
there is no need for the Promoter to reserve the right to acquire
the land compulsorily, and there is a dispute as to whether the
Promoter should reserve the right to exercise compulsory purchase
powers, notwithstanding the fact that British Land are prepared
to give them the right. Sir, we are not going to pursue that here
and we hope that a satisfactory arrangement will be made; if it
is not, as I have said, we will pursue it elsewhere.
4584. The other issues which we intend to pursue
elsewhere are, firstly, the effect of retaining a protective sleeve
along the running tunnels. That is important to British Land because
there is an issue of future development rights and whether they
would wish to pile down into the area which is covered by the
protective sleeve and then an issue of whether they should be
allowed to if the engineers say it would not have an adverse effect
on the tunnel—again, not pursued before you today.
4585. There is then a potential dispute about
whether the Promoter should make a provision for compensation
for incidental damage, and that is the damage, other than settlement,
that arises as a result of the carrying out of the works. That
is not pursued today but it may be pursued later.
4586. The last point which remains in dispute
are the arrangements in the Settlement Deed, and in particular
the requirement that somebody like British Land, who might own
a building in multiple occupation which would include a number
of different tenants, would have to get all those tenants to sign
up in order to get the benefit of the Deed—and that might
include somebody running a kiosk or a small shop—and it
causes administrative and other difficulties. Again, we do not
pursue that here. We understand that other Petitioners may pursue
that, so if it is not resolved satisfactorily again we will pursue
it elsewhere. Having said that, agreement has been reached on
the other petitioning points. The undertaking has not been signed
and sealed as yet. We do not pursue those matters on the basis
that where the Promoter has said he will agree something we assume
that he will, but we would wish to reserve the right to come back
before you if—and we do not anticipate he would—he
resiled from agreement. I appreciate that you will not want Petitioners
popping back and forth, and we do not anticipate we will have
to do that, but I would wish to reserve that right.
4587. Sir, I think that is all I have to say
on the remaining British Land points, so can I turn to British
Land and the City of London Corporation? Sir, the reason that
we are here today, as you know, and you will have seen the letter
from Mr George Lawrence in reply to your letter—and he apologises
for not being here himself today, he is actually appearing in
front of another Committee on the London Local Authorities Bill—is
that since receiving your letter of 16 February both British Land
and the City of London Corporation have attempted to draw up both
a scope of work and a programme for doing the work to provide
that information. Sir, what I would like to do now is to circulate
the note with the scope of the work and a programme. This is not
going to be a voluminous document.
4588. Chairman: Just before we move forward,
Mr Cameron, can I just say that in the light of your comments
about the Committee not wishing Petitioners to keep popping backwards
and forwards to the Committee, that is exactly the sense of our
feeling on this, and we do hope that the agreement can be reached
and the Committee's time is not taken up at some time in the future.
4589. Mr Cameron: Certainly, sir. Sir,
can I explain what the two documents are that you have? One is
headed "Further Work" and that, after discussion, has
been produced by the Promoter.
4590. Chairman: For the record, A54.[1]
4591. Mr Cameron: And in a spirit of
joint working the programme has been drawn up by SDG, and you
will remember that that is Mr Spencer's firm.
4592. Chairman: That for the record is
A53.[2]
4593. Mr Cameron: Sir, I not going to
take you through all the items in this document, Further Work,
save to say that substantial agreement has been reached between
the parties as to what needs to be done and how it should be done.
The programme that we have drawn up on the flow chart shows the
work that we anticipate needs to be done from the scope of work
and when we anticipate it should be done. The two dates which
the Committee will be interested in, amongst others, is item 6
on the flow chart, reports to Committee. The first item on the
flow chart is the report to the Committee today, and then we anticipate
in May coming back to the Committee. Sir, mindful of your remarks
that you do not want people coming back unnecessarily, the reason
we would like to come back is because you have asked, sir, on
behalf of the Committee, for further information, and so we would
like to be able to come back to provide you with that information.
4594. Chairman: I think that is entirely
right, Mr Cameron, but you have raised a number of points and
I do not want you to keep coming back on all of them.
4595. Mr Cameron: No, sir. What we anticipate
in May is that we just come back on Liverpool Street, and what
we do is to provide you with the information you have asked for.
Also, if there is clarification that you seek then both parties
would be able to provide it. Secondly, if there are difficulties
between the parties you may require assistance in resolving difficulties
and differences. May I explain what I mean by that? It may be
that the Promoter concludes that enhanced capacity is necessary,
but that enlarging the eastern ticket hall is not the appropriate
solution—that is a possible outcome—and if that is
the case I have no doubt that the Promoter would want to address
you. It may be that there is agreement that enhanced capacity
needs to be provided to accommodate predicted future flows, but
there is a dispute as to whether the additional capacity should
be provided now as a provision in the Bill or it should be put
off to some future date. Sir, that may be a substantive dispute
because we anticipate from discussions that it may be that the
Promoter says it should be left to some other mechanism, and that
is a dispute that you will have to resolve. There may be a dispute
as to whether it is necessary to provide direct access to the
street from any enlarged eastern ticket hall, and again that is
a dispute which you would have to resolve and you may want to
be assisted on that. Sir, there are many other possible outcomes
from this work and the Committee might, as I have already said,
require some clarification. So that is what we anticipate will
happen until May and what we are asking for is a slot in May so
that we can come back. It may be that we will come back and say,
"The parties are agreed, this is the further information."
It may be that we say, "We think this is what you wanted,
would you like to clarify it?"
4596. Chairman: Mr Cameron, we will be
as amenable in any way that we can, particularly on such a large
issue as Liverpool Street station and all the works that will
have to transpire from that. What I do not want to happen—and
my colleagues agree to this—is to be drawn into the negotiations.
What we want to do is to be helpful in any way we can to finalise
the passage of the Select Committee's work and I may have to come
back to you on that matter. I can see that there may be a need
for you to return at some point, but I will have to liaise with
my colleagues on that and bring back our views on that.
4597. Mr Cameron: Sir, what we are asking
for, to make it plain, is that we set an end date where we come
back, because that has a number of advantages. It means that all
the parties have to work together so that they know they have
to provide the information by that date, and that has an extremely
beneficial effect. It also means, sir, that the parties can come,
present their findings, and you can say, "We need to know
more about this," or that or the other.
4598. Chairman: I think it is fair to
say that we have asked you to go away and do some work and therefore
you should be entitled to come back with some point to make in
relation to those points. I just reiterate that I do not want
us to be drawn into the negotiations on matters, but I accept
that because of our request you may need the opportunity to explain
the information which we sought. In that respect we can agree
that we may have to find time for you.
4599. Mr Cameron: Thank you, sir. You
have the programme and what we are asking you today is not to
get involved in the negotiations or the precise wording, but to
give your general endorsement to the fact that further work is
carrying on, your general endorsement to the programme, which
has an end date in May, and your very helpful indication, which
you have already given, sir, that you will hear us at an appropriate
time when the work has been done.
1 Committee Ref: A54, Enlargement of Ticket Hall B. Back
2
Committee Ref: A53, Liverpool Street Station Options Review-Programme
of Works (SCN20060315-001). Back
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