Select Committee on Crossrail Bill Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7600 - 7619)

  7600. Then beyond that we can see typical high-rise blocks of flats.
  (Mr McCollum): Yes, those were the first high-rise flats built in Woolwich in the 1960s.

  7601. Then at the time of this photograph we can see the Dome and we can also see the Greenwich Peninsula to a substantial extent undeveloped at that time.
  (Mr McCollum): That is correct.

  7602. Can you return to your proof of evidence and read from 1.3 please.
  (Mr McCollum): In the early part of the 20th Century, the Greenwich waterfront, which centred around Woolwich, was one of the great manufacturing workshops of the world, at its peak providing 150,000 industrial and manufacturing jobs along the 8½ miles of riverfront. Following the Second World War, this manufacturing base, which underpinned the economy of south-east London, totally collapsed. Greenwich suffered a fall in employment worse than any other London borough. It entered a steep spiral of decline and by the early 1990s the number of industrial jobs had fallen from 150,000 to 6,000, so over 140,000 jobs had been lost, 80,000 of those in a single factory in Woolwich. Woolwich, with the Royal Arsenal at its centre and as a main contributor to its economic and social vibrancy, was particularly affected. On the main social-economic indicators of deprivation of unemployment, income, health and skills, Woolwich compared very unfavourably with the rest of London. Male unemployment in 1992 in Woolwich reached 60 per cent. The Royal Arsenal finally ceased to function in 1993. Woolwich, although a riverside town, had effectively been cut off from the river by the Royal Arsenal site which had now become redundant. By now the area overall had been left with a legacy of 1,100 acres of contaminated land, more at that time than in either Newham or Tower Hamlets. An additional and significant contributory factor for the failure in vitality and success of Woolwich has been the proportion and type of social housing in the area. This housing was largely built in the 1960s and 1970s by the Council and it suffers from the problems of bad planning and bad design indicative of this type of development of the time. Social housing still makes up a disproportionately large part of the housing stock in the residential areas around Woolwich. Woolwich still has three wards among the most deprived wards in the country, that is, three wards in the 10 per cent most deprived wards and two wards in the nation's 5 per cent most deprived wards. Woolwich is the major riverside town centre in the Thames Gateway of London, yet the reasons which underlay its original settlement which flow from the topography and geography of the area still hold true today. Since the 1990s the decline of the town centre has been checked and the regeneration of the Royal Arsenal is slowly progressing. The town is now at a significant stage in its history in terms of its own development and regional contribution as it pursues a post-industrial identity as the premier town of the Thames Gateway London south. For over ten years the Council has orchestrated one of the largest regeneration programmes in the land across north Greenwich as a whole. Vast areas of derelict land have been remediated and are now the focus for new investment and development. The economic decline of past decades has been halted and the foundations for a new economic base are in place. The Greenwich Waterfront Partnership, which was created in the 1990s, and other local partnerships were created to bring together the Council, local community and businesses to develop a joint approach to bringing investment through government funding streams and to attract private investors to the borough. Greenwich has secured government funding, including Single Regeneration Budget, Neighbourhood Renewal, and significant European funds to take forward both social and physical regeneration. The borough is now attracting a significant level of private sector inward investment and is seeing record housing development. In 2004 Greenwich has more new residential planning approvals than Lewisham, Southwark, Lambeth and Wandsworth put together. The potential for development is vast. It has major sites close to central London. This potential is wholly dependent on continuing improvements to the infrastructure.

  7603. We can move to slide 3 and I think there are matters you particularly wish to draw attention to on this slide, Mr McCollum.[24]

  (Mr McCollum): That is a plan really of Woolwich which we have already seen several times this morning. That plan of Woolwich, the areas set out in pink colouring, shows all those areas of Woolwich that are subject to redevelopment, but have become redundant, which are about to be, are in the process of, or will be in the future, subject to redevelopment. This is merely to emphasise what I have been saying about the complete decline of the town centre, its reason for being and the whole redevelopment that needs to take place, some of which in the northern part of the Royal Arsenal is taking place, but very little of which has taken place in the bottom two thirds of that plan.

  7604. Just to relate the plan to what we have seen already, the Royal Arsenal is the largest single block of pink, is it not, in the top right-hand corner?
  (Mr McCollum): Yes, that is right, along the river.

  7605. We can see what is obviously the pier of the ferry in the top left-hand corner and the A206, the main road from the Blackwall Tunnel eastwards immediately to the south of the Woolwich Arsenal.
  (Mr McCollum): Yes, the highway there and at the top left-hand corner of the picture there is a big roundabout. That is the roundabout at which the South Circular meets the North Thames Express Route which carries on there in a slightly circuitous route, travelling east towards the M25.

  7606. Return to your proof please, paragraph 1.11.
  (Mr McCollum): Much of the borough's development is on brownfield sites along the riverfront. The Greenwich Peninsula, with up to 14,000 homes planned and a state-of-the-art entertainment centre, is the largest of these developments. It was brought forward by the Jubilee Line extension to North Greenwich in 1999. In Woolwich the development of the Royal Arsenal will provide over 4,000 dwellings as part of a mixed-use development. This will include entertainment, leisure and community facilities. It is close to Woolwich town centre, but separated by a major highway and very little development has taken place in the town itself, yet much of Woolwich is available for development, as we can see. Key to the success of development is the integration of the physical and social infrastructure. The most critical of these is transport and the largest single factor will be a Crossrail station in Woolwich. So as to further the regeneration of Woolwich, building on the Royal Arsenal development, the Council has, with support from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the London Development Agency, established the Woolwich Regeneration Agency as the local delivery vehicle for this part of the Thames Gateway. Berkeley Homes, Tilfen Land and Powis Street Estates represent the private sector on the Board of the Agency. The Docklands Light Railway is also a Board member. The Woolwich Regeneration Agency will oversee and co-ordinate the continued regeneration of Woolwich. Its range of partners will provide the required mix of public and private sector skills to address the regeneration challenges faced by Woolwich. Woolwich, as an historic town centre, has begun to undergo major change and significant development. Whilst some of this development is confirmed and under way, the impact of Crossrail will add hugely to this development potential. Key development opportunities are provided by: firstly, plans for a major new town centre development in Woolwich, involving the provision of a new civic office and 10,000 square metres of retail, a Tesco store, up to 1,000 new homes and a new public library; secondly, the development of a key part of the high street with the provision of 25,000 square metres of commercial, retail and residential development; thirdly, the potential for significant mixed-use development around the new DLR station at Woolwich; and, fourthly, addressing the impact of poor and over-concentrated social housing through the demolition and redevelopment of a large part of the town's housing estates.

  7607. We can move to figure 4.[25]

  (Mr McCollum): None of those developments is yet committed or secured. The combined total of planned developments will provide significant impact on the Thames Gateway agenda over the next 20 years. The scale of development outlined above is not certain and much of it remains fragile and sensitive to local, regional and national markets. The developments already taking place and the overall ambition for the area require, and deserve, a regional transport infrastructure which adds economic viability and vibrancy. The DLR at Woolwich is welcome and will provide an important transport link on a local basis, as will the Greenwich Waterfront Transit.

  7608. If we can just pause there, first of all, as far as DLR is concerned, obviously Mr Chard will deal with it in detail, but will it provide anything like the service that a Crossrail station at Woolwich will provide?[26]

  (Mr McCollum): It is quite a different service. Perhaps I can describe some of the residential development which is taking place at Woolwich which is the primary town centre in this part of south-east London. There are major employment opportunities being created, not so much now south of the river, although some, but particularly at the Isle of Dogs and Canary Wharf. The DLR from Woolwich to Canary Wharf will take about 35 minutes, whereas Crossrail from Woolwich to Canary Wharf would take about eight minutes, so we believe that illustrates a substantial difference of nature between a highly valued, local transport system, which is the DLR. It will hugely improve and change our links with Newham, with the Royal Docks, with London City Airport and with the DLR system as a whole, but the DLR is a light-rail system and it is a slow system. Here what we are talking about is the ability to carry large numbers of people quickly into the London travel-to-work area which has historically been Woolwich's problem, that it has been a local industrial area, which was not a problem as long as that was viable, but as soon as that stopped being viable, the fact that it was not in the London travel-to-work area became a complete issue for us.

  7609. As I say, Mr Chard will deal with the details about the Greenwich Waterfront Transit, but, from your perspective, how does the Greenwich Waterfront Transit compare with Crossrail?
  (Mr McCollum): As I have described, the Greenwich Waterfront Transit will be a highly valued, local service. It largely has a different route, but the Waterfront Transit system, which is an intermediate mode, known as a bus, it is a bus route that will link Woolwich with North Greenwich Station. It is called an `intermediate mode' rather than a bus, although I think people in Woolwich would tend to think of it as a bus because in certain places it has got a dedicated route, but it is a bus service. It will carry people to North Greenwich Station. The people at the North Greenwich Station can then get on to the Jubilee Line and go to Canary Wharf which again will take about 35 minutes, so again it is a very valued local transport system. Greenwich has negotiated funding into it, has very much supported it and continues to do so, but it is not a strategic London-wide system which will put this major town of south-east London on to that London map.

  7610. If you could return to your proof, we are at the very last line of page 4.
  (Mr McCollum): The Crossrail Station at the heart of Woolwich would reinforce the town as the regional hub for this part of south-east London. Failure so to provide will create ambiguity and potentially market uncertainty. The Council and its partners are committed to transforming Woolwich into a place that meets the aspirations of the Sustainable Communities Plan, integrating the existing communities with the new and addressing the deprivation and social inequality that currently characterise large parts of the town. Our track record at Greenwich Peninsula, the Royal Arsenal and the estate renewal of the 1,900-home Ferrier Estate at Kidbrooke, which is being demolished and rebuilt with 4,500 dwellings, demonstrate that we have the skills and resources to further these aspirations. The Council is fully supportive of the Crossrail project. It recognises that it will provide a huge step change necessary for the regeneration of the Thames Gateway. We believe that a Crossrail link south of the river is an essential element of the scheme. It would be perverse, in our view, if the only town centre on the Crossrail route south of the river did not have a station if, as is proposed, trains went through the town without stopping. When the Council was advised that the Woolwich station had been removed from the scheme, there was unanimous all-party support to lobby for this decision to be reviewed and reversed. You will see from our evidence that there is large public and business support for our Petition.

  7611. We move to figure 5 please.[27]

  (Mr McCollum): I have described how, before the Crossrail Bill was deposited, the Council took steps to address serious economic and social decline in Woolwich and the surrounding area. The evidence we will put to you builds on that aspiration. A Crossrail station at Woolwich will cement the nascent, but fragile regeneration of this part of south-east London. Woolwich is the natural central place for the sub-region. It is the centre of commerce and of the whole sub-regional transport network. It has the potential to make a huge contribution to the Gateway and to the prosperity of London and the nation.

  7612. Mr McCollum, I wonder if you could now deal with some of the documents we received yesterday afternoon from the Promoter, and we move to the Promoter's exhibit H3 please, which is three slides relating to the Greenwich Peninsula.[28] We can see in the first one the Greenwich Peninsula before redevelopment on it took place. Then, if we could move to page 2, we can see the Dome and some new roads and then, finally, perhaps we could move to page 21, which is the future proposals for the Greenwich Peninsula.[29] Firstly, Mr McCollum, have you been involved with the development of the Greenwich Peninsula since 1990?


  (Mr McCollum): I have, yes. I have been very closely involved with the development since 1990.

  7613. Can we deal with the change in terms of numbers of dwellings that have been intended for the Greenwich Peninsula as that scheme has progressed?
  (Mr McCollum): When we were campaigning for the station at North Greenwich, which was finally agreed in 1994, but which had been prior to that time dropped from the proposals for the extension of the Jubilee Line, it would go through North Greenwich and a station box would be developed underground, but the station would not be fitted out. Now, it was clear to us that this was the key to developing the Greenwich Peninsula, so we campaigned very hard for it. When that development was agreed, there were plans at that time, and I spent the next two years discussing with British Gas plans for the development of, as it was earlier, 1,000 dwellings and in fact it is 3,000 dwellings on the Greenwich Peninsula.

  7614. Yes, I must correct my opening in respect of that. That is the problem with taking instructions on materials that have just been received. My instructions are that it is 3,000, not 1,000.
  (Mr McCollum): At that time a planning application was submitted by British Gas for 3,000 dwellings and indeed we were certainly minded to approve of that proposal and, as the development proceeded, as the station has proceeded, in fact those early expectations and aspirations, although we realised it was the key to success, were greatly understated and today there is approved planning permission for about 14,000 dwellings on the Greenwich Peninsula which is a huge rise and it is a lot of people, but that is what happened. The aspiration at that time was that there would be a business district and there would be an entertainment centre of some sort and there would be residential development of 3,000. Now, there is an entertainment centre of some sort, which is the Arena which will open next year—

  7615. The Arena is of course the Dome?
  (Mr McCollum): Yes, it is now the O2, but the Dome to all of us in Greenwich, with the 26,000-capacity Arena which will open early next year, so there is an entertainment centre, and there is a central business district, but the 3,000 dwellings have moved to 14,000.

  7616. In terms of how much money has been received from the public purse for these dwellings, what was the original estimate of valued planning obligations when North Greenwich was being discussed?
  (Mr McCollum): The original estimate of planning obligations at that time when we were first discussing the British Gas planning application, which was made immediately following the decision on North Greenwich Station, was that there would be 20 per cent affordable housing rising to 25 per cent in terms of floor area with financial contributions, which were never finalised, but were expected to be of the order of £5 million overall. Now, the planning permission for just part of the site, because, if I can just address the picture for a moment, if you were to slice Greenwich Peninsula, moving from left to right, about a third of the way along, which would more or less take you through the gasometer which is right in the middle of the Peninsula there, that is the remaining vestige of what was once the biggest gas works in Europe. If you take all of that to the left of that so that the site is divided into two parts, the bit to the left of that is what is called the `Millennium Village' and the bit to the right of that is what is called the `MDL development', the Meridian Delta Limited development or sometimes more simply known as the `Lendlease development' because Lendlease is the biggest developer partner in that. Although we were talking about 25 per cent housing and about £5 million of financial contribution, there are two or three planning agreements which have been agreed for the Millennium Village part, which is to the left, and the planning obligations are attached to that, and I do not have those in front of me, but the right-hand part of it, the planning obligation planning agreement which was signed allowing the issue of planning permission last year between the Council and MDL provided for 38 per cent affordable housing and a financial contribution in addition to that of £104 million. Therefore, again we knew it was the right thing to do and we put levels on what we thought would be achieved back in 1994, but practice has shown that in actual fact the levels have become far higher. Of that £104 million of financial contribution, £40 million has been contributed to public transport arising from the MDL development of the Greenwich Peninsula.

  7617. So this Council overstates its case, according to the Promoter. At the North Greenwich Station it was anticipating 3,000 and it is now 14,000 and it was anticipating £3 million contribution to the public sector and it is now £104 million and two thirds of the site only. In terms of the Greenwich Peninsula, how important has the presence of the North Greenwich Station been here?
  (Mr McCollum): The development of the North Greenwich Station, we knew it was the key. Well, there were two keys. I say it was the key, but there was a second key, there were two keys. First, the land had to be remediated because it was a contaminated site and it is now a remediated site. In 1994 when it was still a contaminated site, what is more, it had no transport. There were two big outcomes which the Council sought. The first was remediation of the site and the second was to secure a station at North Greenwich. Working with its partners, British Gas and others were subsequently successful in that. That was what allowed the development of the Greenwich Peninsula to proceed. It has to be the case that, if that had not happened, the station development around this part of east London would have meant that eventually it would have got developed. That has to be so. It is inconceivable though to me, having been closely involved through all that time, that it would have been remediated in anything like that timescale and it is inconceivable to me, because as, Director of Strategic Planning, we would not have permitted it, for the development to have proceeded at that intensity. The North Greenwich Station is the biggest single event. In the last 20-year history of the regeneration of Greenwich, the North Greenwich Station was the biggest single event, not the Docklands Light Railway to the Greenwich town centre, although that was important, but it was the North Greenwich Station that facilitated this development. Without that, there is no way there would be 14,000 dwellings going on to this site because there simply would not have been the capacity to move people on and off it. Of course the other factor is that, with the station there, it immediately stimulated the interest of the developers. When I took people around the Greenwich Peninsula in the early 1990s, when it was a contaminated, empty site, I took developers around there and they sort of looked sadly at us and said, "You will go nowhere until you have got remediation and a fast and capable transport system", and that is exactly what happened.

  7618. I am going to move to your conclusions, Mr McCollum, and I think, in conclusion, you wanted to briefly point out what you consider to be the five key messages of your case.
  (Mr McCollum): Yes, I have summarised my particular contribution to this down to five key points that I hope will be helpful. The first of these is the pivotal position of Woolwich. It is the natural place of the Thames Gateway London South, it is the only town centre in the Thames Gateway London South on the river and it is the major riverside town of the Thames Gateway. There are very few town centres anywhere in the Thames Gateway that are on the river. Actually it is a river which tended to flood, but Woolwich did not because it is on high ground, so it is a pivotal position which is the natural central place. Secondly, there has been a catastrophic decline of industry in Woolwich. That case is clear and there is no dispute about that. There is an overwhelming case for the town's regeneration, but regeneration on a major scale. I repeat that there has been 60 per cent male unemployment in 1992/93 in Woolwich with a large population, and major measures are needed. Thirdly, some progress has been made, but really no progress in the main town centre south of that main dual-carriageway we have looked at. It has been largely confined to the Royal Arsenal, which is a nice new riverside site, separated from the town centre by a six-lane highway. The major development in Woolwich town centre itself is still very uncertain. Fourthly, there is a need for major renewal of the large areas of social housing which surround Woolwich. This is dependent on the land values that Crossrail will bring. The fifth is that the railway goes through the town, under the town without stopping at the moment and the view in Woolwich is that that is a perverse thing to do for the main town centre when there is so much potential benefit to be secured.

  7619. Thank you, Mr McCollum. Sir, I do not know if this is a convenient time, given your earlier indication.


24   Committee Ref: A84, Plan of Woolwich (GRCHLB-3605-427). Back

25   Committee Ref: A84, Greenwich town centre development (GRCHLB-3605-428). Back

26   Committee Ref: A84, Aerial Photo of DLR Station & Cross Rail Station Sites-Proposal (GRCHLB-3605-429). Back

27   Committee Ref: A84, Greenwich town centre development (GRCHLB-3605-430). Back

28   Crossrail Ref: P77, Aerial image of Greenwich Peninsula before 1996 (GRCHLB-3604-003). Back

29   Crossrail Ref: P77, Aerial image of Greenwich Peninsula in 2000 (GRCHLB-3604-002) and Proposed Layout of Greenwich Peninsula (GRCHLB-3604-021). Back


 
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