Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7800
- 7819)
7800. Just stating the obvious, what will be
the big change that brought about with offices `with Crossrail'?
What is the big advantage that a company might see in Woolwich
once Crossrail is there?
(Mr Lambert) The main effect will be accessibility
to other established office destinations within London and it
is my belief that this would enable Woolwich, the position itself,
not to compete with the prime office areas of Canary Wharf, the
West End or the City, but rather to offer what we describe as
"back office" space, which can be low value-added but
nevertheless important functions, so this could be administration
and also emergency office accommodation as well.
7801. Thank you, Mr Lambert.
7802. Mr Elvin: Sir, I will adopt the
same approach, if that is acceptable to the Committee, just to
make a few highlights to illustrate the position.
Cross-examined by Mr Elvin
7803. Mr Elvin: Mr Lambert, good afternoon.
In terms of barriers to growth which is a point you make in your
summary, barriers to growth are seen by the Woolwich town centre
redevelopment document that I was looking at with Mr Jones half
an hour ago in a particular way, can we just have a look at the
last conclusions of that development framework It is Petitioner's
exhibit page 189 and you will recall the framework is in the context
of no Crossrail, Crossrail as only being a possibility.[73]
Were you here when I asked those questions of Mr Jones?
(Mr Lambert): I was here, I have
not read this document in detail because actually I am giving
my judgment on EDAW's opinions which have been updated from here,
so I am not familiar with this document.
7804. You will forgive me if I just draw your
attention to the first paragraph which says that Woolwich has
seen a strong revival in its fortunes, revitalisation of Arsenal,
shift in the overall geography of London which has now based Woolwich
as a fulcrum between central London and the wider Thames Gateway.
New transport infrastructure will add to existing good transport
to make Woolwich one of the best connected places in London. On
the back of these and other investments under consideration the
town centre itself will undergo comprehensive restructuring and
will change the public perception of Woolwich and that is effectively
without any commitment as to Crossrail?
(Mr Lambert): Those are not my words and without
Crossrail I would not describe Woolwich as being one of the best
connected places in London
7805. That is the EDAW report. The position
in terms of benefits in terms of accessibility which I understand
to be one of the key issues, can we have a look, please, at the
bar charts that you have produced and the table. Can we look first,
please, at your table, this is Petitioner's exhibits page 199
and if we can focus on the table, please, figure one it is, "Estimated
journey savings to key employment destinations".[74]
These are the figures that feed into the bar chart you showed
the Committee a few minutes ago?
(Mr Lambert): Correct.
7806. And what it allows us to see is the position
now, the position with the DLR, the position with the DLR and
Woolwich station and the position with the DLR and Crossrail,
but no Woolwich station?
(Mr Lambert): Correct
7807. And what you have done is you have done
the various time savings. What you have not done is an indication
of the time savings between the current situation and the DLR
with Crossrail but without a station which would be the situation
so far as the Bill scheme is concerned?
(Mr Lambert): Can I make one qualification?
These are not my figures. Would you mind just repeating the question?
7808. This gives us a number of journey times
and savings, but the one comparison that has not been done explicitly
from this table, although the base figures are still there, is
what improvement Crossrail, without a Woolwich station and the
DLR, would create over the current situation?
(Mr Lambert): I believe that is column four,
if I understand your question correctly?
7809. Exactly, you can actually do the exercise
for yourself and I am going to deal with you in a moment. Can
we just look at your bar chart though to see it represented in
graphic terms? If we look at page 211 of your exhibits, the figures,
most figures are translated into a bar chart here, are they not?[75]
(Mr Lambert): Yes
7810. And we can see the journey times, the
current ones are in blue, the DLR are in red, then we have DLR
but Crossrail with no station at Woolwich and then we have DLR
and Crossrail with the Woolwich station. It is effectively a story
of increasing benefit, is it not, with a small blip for Paddington
where, I think, the DLR for some reason increases journey times
by a minute or two?
(Mr Lambert): It is a story of increasing benefit,
yes.
7811. So in fact we can see here graphically
illustrated that even without a Woolwich station and presumably
because of the interchange possibilities that are opened elsewhere
within the network, the light yellow bar, the Crossrail but no
Woolwich station, still delivers benefits over and above the DLR
in Woolwich in terms of journey savings?
(Mr Lambert): It does indeed, yes.
7812. So that Crossrail will still bring benefits
of regeneration to Woolwich because it will still, on your evidence,
shorten journey times over the benefits produced by the DLR?
(Mr Lambert): It will certainly reduce journey
time. I think it may be helpful for the Committee to know though
the property market does not follow these sort of logical steps
and these sort of gradients that I think we are looking at here.
The perception of Woolwich with the Crossrail station would be
to significantly enhance investor and development confidence and
effectively it would put Woolwich on the institutional map, it
is not at the moment, and I believe, my judgment is that the third
column which is Crossrail with no route station, whilst it will
reduce journey times, would not have a significant impact on the
property market perception.
7813. That is your judgment, it is not necessarily
one with which everyone agrees, Mr Lambert.
(Mr Lambert): Indeed, but I think it helps
to give my opinion.
7814. And it is also here to be tested as well.
Let me just put this to you: if it is the case as the master plan
framework that the Committee have just seen that it is thought
that significant benefits will be delivered to Woolwich without
Crossrail, with only the possibility of Crossrail, that is to
say that the DLR and the other committed benefits absent Crossrail,
it must follow from these additional accessibility benefits that
the situation with Crossrail must be better than as predicted
for the framework without Crossrail?
(Mr Lambert): I follow your logic and I would
agree with that logic, but again I do not have a detailed understanding
of the previous framework, but I would agree with that logic,
yes.
7815. And that is borne out by your own report,
your property market report, and can we just look at a few highlights.
Can we please look at it is the Petitioner's exhibits, page 221.[76]
Here you start your property market review and I appreciate throughout
that you will say that Crossrail will make an additional difference
on top of everything that is happening already and that is understood.
So far as the property market review is concerned for residential,
second paragraph from the bottom starting, "Despite the slightly
downbeat summary", you say, "There is still a fair amount
of residential development already happening in Woolwich, and
that is as at last month?
(Mr Lambert): Correct.
7816. And that is even without the DLR, the
DLR is a commitment, but it has got three years to go before it
opens?
(Mr Lambert): The market is expecting DLR to
be delivered, there is commitment to DLR. It may also be helpful
to know that Royal Arsenal is good for Woolwich, I think there
is no doubt about that. Having been involved in that at the outset
for English Partnerships and the London Development Agency in
that instance, it needed significant and, from memory, I think
it is about £80 million of pump priming by the public sector,
without doubt and we made this advice very clear at the outset,
without that pump priming investment by the public sector the
Royal Arsenal would look like the photograph we saw earlier in
the day, i.e. a wasteland, but it is now happening and will happen
without Crossrail.
7817. Can we look at retail and leisure on the
next page, 222, please and can we zoom in at the bottom half of
the page?[77]
We can see the last three paragraphs. The situation is changing
in terms of food retail in particular, there are a few major retail
developments planned in Woolwich that would have a significant
impact if delivered on the retail provision on the town as well
as on the town's image as a retail destination. Both Sainsbury's
and Tesco's have plans in the pipeline to build stores in the
town centre and there have been rental increases of about 65 per
cent over 2001 levels and then it says the DLR extension is likely
to have a considerable impact on the retail market, it will make
Woolwich have a more accessible shopping destination. So, again,
we have got benefits and changes for the good that are coming
about which will be enhanced by the DLR without necessarily having
Crossrail there?
(Mr Lambert): Undoubtedly. The
three major schemes that I referred to before I am confident will
happen without Crossrail. It is my judgment that that will be
just about the capacity for development in Woolwich without Crossrail.
7818. What you say later on is that it is unlikely
that three major food retailers would be bringing forward proposals
if they did not think there was the capacity within Woolwich to
support it?
(Mr Lambert): Absolutely.
7819. Can we then go, please, to that page,
240 in your exhibit?[78]
We can see that that point is made in the first paragraph on that
page. If we look at the third paragraph, if we can zoom in on
that, please? "In the lead up to the opening of the DLR extension,
demand for residential floor space will increase, particularly
on sites near the DLR station and market opinion is in robust
terms of the residential deliverability of EDAW proposals".
So, again, you expect the opening of DLR to generate or to be
preceded by a surge in interest?
(Mr Lambert): Yes, which will
help deliver the pipeline development that I previously referred
to. As I said, I am confident that that pipeline will be developed
because of what has happened to Woolwich to date and because of
DLR.
73 Committee Ref: A84, Conclusion , EDAW Report November
2004 (GRCHLB-3605-189). Back
74
Committee Ref: A84, Impact of Other New Transport Links, Estimated
journey savings from Woolwich to key employment destinations,
DTZ Report (GRCHLB-3605-199). Back
75
Committee Ref: A84, Journey Times Savings from Woolwich to Key
Employment Destinations (GRCHLB-3605-211). Back
76
Committee Ref: A84, Property Market Review-Residential, DTZ Report
(GRCHLB-3605-221). Back
77
Committee Ref: A84, Retail/Leisure; and Offices, DTZ Report (GRCHLB-3605-222). Back
78
Committee Ref: A84, Realistic Growth Potential of Woolwich without
Crossrail, DTZ Report (GRCHLB-3605-240). Back
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