Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8120
- 8139)
8120. But that long gap, which contrasts greatly
with the gap between stations elsewhere on the line, goes through
a densely populated area which needs regeneration and which could
well do with a station which would help with that regeneration.
(Mr Anderson) I think undoubtedly it would
help regeneration, yes.
8121. Mr Lidddell-Grainger: How far is
Abbey Wood in miles, if possible, if there was a station at Woolwich?
How far would that be? I worked it out at about 3.5 kilometres.
(Mr Anderson) You are probably right.
8122. So roughly two and half miles, three miles.
Is one of the reasons behind it that once these trains, which
are quite big and long, get up to speed it is going to be slowing
down? Is that the thinking behind it? It is actually so close.
(Mr Anderson) I am not aware that that is an
important factor in the decision.
8123. Because Abbey Wood is going to be the
terminus for it. If you look at the rough spacing of these stations
along the whole of the route, all the way around, they are all
fairly equidistant. It just intrigues me that if you go from Abbey
Wood up to Custom House and then on to the Isle of Dogs and then
up to Shoreditch, Whitechapel they are all fairly equidistant,
but that one would not be, that would be very, very close. There
was no thinking behind it—rather like Embankment and Charing
Cross—that it is too close?
(Mr Anderson) I do not believe that was the
factor.
8124. Not at all?
(Mr Anderson) I will take advice from my colleagues
but I do not believe that was the case.
8125. Something must have happened; if it is
not to do with costs it is to do with something?
(Mr Anderson) I think the position was that
the station was not included in the scheme and the principle reason
was the high capital cost. I think now we have done a lot of further
work for ourselves and the borough has as well, and I think that
what we see now will in turn be a matter for the Minister.
8126. Chairman: The distance is extraordinarily
long. The whole purpose of Crossrail is to get a new railway across
London from one part to the other, and here you are going from
Custom House and even the Isle of Dogs. How far is that? Is it
about nine kilometres—five miles, six miles? How far is
that from Custom House to Abbey Wood?
(Mr Anderson) I think it is a bit less than
that, sir. Perhaps the best thing is if we note down the distances
for you and let you have a note on that.
8127. It is certainly over five miles, is it
not?
(Mr Anderson) Yes. I think one is getting perhaps
a slightly unfair comparison here because you have the DLR very
much in the foreground here and the tube and you would expect
the distances for those to be much shorter than for a national
rail service.
8128. If you go back to what we were discussing
earlier, on page 19 of the Promoter's case, and all the different
aspects of the decision-making factors which make up the decision,
it seems to be doing nothing else but driving the railway through.
It does not seem to be anything to do with sustainability of population
communities of anything else, or regeneration, it just seems to
be driving the railway.
(Mr Anderson) Sir, I do not think that is the
case. The strategic reason for having the southeast branch at
all is to connect into the national rail network south of the
river, and thereby connect into the Thames Gateway. We do get
significant movements from the North Kent area on to Crossrail
at Abbey Wood.
8129. There is a public participation in this
as well as government support. It gets the whole ethos of government
policy; it is all about sustainable communities and a sustainable
railway. It just seems that going that kind of distance it is
only traversing trains out of the area—through, but never
stopping.
(Mr Anderson) The principle reason for that
link is the connection into the railway south of the river.
8130. Not the people.
(Mr Anderson) Yes, because clearly from Abbey
Wood onwards you would connect with that and we have already connected
north of the river with the docklands area.
8131. It is a crossrail, across London railway,
and it seems to be going through an area which is densely populated
which is probably the most deprived in the city and yet you are
not stopping, not even to wave—just going straight through.
(Mr Anderson) All I can say is that it is very
deep below ground and that is what has driven the high cost and
I think that is what has led to the decision.
8132. Mr Jones: Sir, I hope that this
is the proper thing to do and not in any way wrong, but figures
for the distances that have just been asked about were supplied
a little while ago in a note from the Petitioner to the Promoter
and I do not think they are disputed. They were Custom House to
Abbey Wood, 7.55 kilometres, in round terms four and a half miles;
Custom House to Woolwich was 4,150 metres; and Woolwich to Abbey
Wood was 3,400 metres.
Re-examined by Mr Elvin
8133. Mr Elvin: Mr Anderson, can I come
back to the questions that the Chairman and Mr Binley were asking
about consideration of regeneration benefits. I would like to
take the Committee through the process of what was assessed and
whether regeneration issues were taken into account before the
business case and the benchmark schemes were prepared. Can you
explain what the latter approach is and what it involves and how
we got to the case that was put to Montague?
(Mr Anderson) Yes. I think we have already
heard evidence on the five categories, which include economy,
integration, accessibility and so on, and the regeneration aspects
come up under integration and that is where we get the integration
with other government policies such as those of regeneration.
We can assess the effect of regeneration using the method I outlined
earlier, that we actually work out the changes in accessibility
across London, but particularly in relation to designated regeneration
areas, and from that we can develop estimates of employment growth,
and indeed these were cited in our statement. So that effect overall
would have formed part of the vast assessment that was put to
Montague.
8134. Let me put the matter into plain English.
The Committee clearly what to know from you to what extent the
regeneration benefits of the different areas that are being targeted
by Crossrail were taken into account, and in plain terms were
they looked at and were they appraised?
(Mr Anderson) Yes, they were.
8135. Can we look at the Montague Report because
it refers to some of these items? It is in the Promoter's bundle,
exhibit 57.[19]
This is from the Montague Business Report. We have the section
headed "Wider benefits" and we see at 160: "Wider
benefits are identified in three main areas. One is support for
London's position as the pre-eminent FBS Centre," the City
of London, the Isle of Dogs and elsewhere. "Support for the
planning and transport policies for government, the GLA,"
et cetera. And thirdly, "Regeneration effects, particularly
the Thames Gateway." The Committee can see, for example at
163, employment growth issues; 164 and 165 issues as to how you
work those out. We see at 165 in particular, "CLRL believes
that Crossrail has the potential to contribute significantly to
the government's wider regeneration objectives, particularly Thames
Gateway where a range of initiatives is planned in relation to
housing, education and to health." Can I just understand
this—and perhaps you can explain this to the Committee—that
although a station at Woolwich is not proposed is it expected
that benefits to the town's gateway area will be delivered by
Crossrail, looking at the area generally?
(Mr Anderson) Clearly, yes, a
large proportion of the jobs indicated there would be related
to the Thames Gateway. Indeed, I think strategically one of the
reasons for actually taking the railway south of the river is
to connect into the Thames Gateway.
8136. Can I ask you about the reasons for taking
it south of the river? In terms of the connections into the wider
rail network that you mentioned earlier, what are the benefits
in terms of the connection to the main line and the North Kent
line?
(Mr Anderson) It allows us to provide a high
quality interchange with services from the Thames Gateway area.
8137. But what does that do in real terms for
those actually using the North Kent line?
(Mr Anderson) It means that they can get off
the train at Abbey Wood and walk across the platform and then
get a—
8138. Yes, but what that does that do for the
quality of the service that is available?
(Mr Anderson) It is much better, particularly
if they are travelling into the Docklands area and the City area.
8139. In terms of the benefits, therefore, coming
south for connection, is that a benefit that is targeted at Abbey
Wood, or is it a benefit that is targeted at North Kent?
(Mr Anderson) It is targeted at a much wider
area.
19 Crossrail Ref: P77, Crossrail Review, Wider Benefits,
Paras 163-165 (GRCHLB-3604-057). Back
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