Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8400
- 8419)
8400. Mr Elvin: Mr Hardie, since the
debate here is a narrow one I am not going to deal with a lot
of your detail. May I just say this with regard to your revised
costs to Abbey Wood: we think you have underestimated the costs
of the new station, but, frankly, since the result is broadly
the same I am not going to trouble you with it. You have also
confused some figures which are net present value figures with
capital costs, but again the broad picture is not disputed. I
am not going to spend time going through that in detail; I am
sure the Committee will not want me to. Can I just ask you this:
what is happening on the North Kent line with the Abbey Wood proposals,
if we look—and I am taking these figures from page 79 of
volume 1 of the Environmental Statement, table 4.4—there
will be massive journey saving times in any event for people transferring
from the North Kent line at Abbey Wood.[47]
Will there not?
(Mr Hardie) Yes.
8401. Can I give you the figures? Abbey Wood
to the Isle of Dogs will go from 30 minutes to 9 minutes—a
saving of 21 minutes. If you take Abbey Wood to Paddington it
goes from 59 minutes to 27 minutes—a saving of 32 minutes.
I have added together to the second figures the items one and
two. One takes you from Abbey Wood to the Isle of Dogs and—
(Mr Hardie) Yes, 59 to 27. Yes.
8402. So with both those journeys from Abbey
Wood you are halving, roughly speaking, the journey time.
(Mr Hardie) Yes, I agree.
8403. Unless your prognostications of doom and
gloom of having to wait for half-an-hour for a Crossrail train
are correct at Abbey Wood—
(Mr Hardie) I did not say half-an-hour's wait
for a Crossrail train.
8404. No?
(Mr Hardie) No.
8405. Half-an-hour at Belvedere?
(Mr Hardie) What I said was that if you are
forced to change trains at Abbey Wood, you might, if you want
to get to Belvedere, then have to wait 35 minutes for the train.
8406. Clearly, those coming in from the North
Kent line and wanting to go fast into the centre or West End of
London will find their service massively improved regardless of
the fact that you have to change at Abbey Wood.
(Mr Hardie) I would agree that there would
be an improvement but I would also say that the improvement is
not as good as it could be.
8407. You can say that about lots of things.
Can we just examine a few other issues. You have asked the Committee
to pursue certain options, and I will make submissions about them
in the light of my instructions—I am not going to cross-examine
you about each and every item. Can I ask you this: your Option
C and, to a lesser extent, your Option B, effectively, requests
the Committee to ask Parliament to direct the immediate bringing
forward of a TWA Order. Your Option C asks Parliament to deem
an approval in principle in accordance with Section 9. Ebbsfleet
has never been subject to Environmental Impact Assessment, has
it? It is not part of the scheme and, therefore, was not subject
to EIA with the scheme.
(Mr Hardie) That is true.
8408. What is the length of track from Abbey
Wood to Ebbsfleet?
(Mr Hardie) It is about 15 to 20 kilometres.
8409. It passes through residential areas, does
it?
(Mr Hardie) Yes.
8410. We have seen some of those on the plans.
If the Committee were to go down that line (and I am not saying
that is consistent with the Instruction—I am going to leave
that to my closing submissions) you are asking the Committee to
make a recommendation that the House of Commons reconsider its
Instruction and its decision in principle. That is right, is it?
Then, if they agree with that, it has to be recommitted to Select
Committee to consider whether or not to amend the Bill. Yes? If
the Committee so recommends, an additional provision then has
to be produced and debated, and that then has to be subjected
to Environmental Impact Assessment.
(Mr Hardie) Yes.
8411. You are going to be adding significantly
to the delay in getting Royal Assent to the Bill. Are you not?
(Mr Hardie) That is probably true, but I think
the important thing is that without somehow taking forward the
extension to Ebbsfleet it is unclear how what is, effectively,
a strong potential part of the project would be taken forward.
I must admit I find it difficult to address the technicalities
of how this might be done, and I would have to ask Mr Cameron
to help me answer this.
8412. Sir Peter Soulsby: Mr Elvin, do
not spend too much time at this stage; I think we are more interested
in the merits of the proposal, at this stage. I think it is sufficient
for the Committee to know there are some options and that there
are likely to be problems associated with that.
8413. Mr Elvin: Very well, sir. I am
quite happy to do that.
8414. Mr Cameron: I should make plain
that poor Mr Hardie was lumbered with those options in his evidence
so that they were presented to the Committee straight away, but
they are probably best dealt with by submission.
8415. Mr Elvin: I think that is Mr Cameron
saying he wrote that and he does not want to be cross-examined!
8416. Sir Peter Soulsby: I think we are
all agreed. Let us move on to the merits of the case, Mr Elvin.
8417. Mr Elvin: I am grateful. Can we
then just look at the question of whether it can go as the first
phase of Crossrail. You are effectively saying to the Committee
you should recommend that this should take priority to every other
element of the scheme, including the necessary increase in capacity
to offset the problems with the London Underground through central
London and going to the City of London. You are saying, effectively,
it should take priority even over that. Are you not?
(Mr Hardie) I do not think I am saying that
it should be the first section, but certainly—
8418. Within the first section, I think you
said.
(Mr Hardie) Yes, I think there is a strong
case for doing so.
8419. There is no depot in the South East link,
is there? No Crossrail depot.
(Mr Hardie) No, but there is Slade Green.
47 Crossrail Environmental Statement Volume 1, Table
4.4-Illustrative Journey Times and Time Savings with Crossrail,
http://billdocuments.crossrail.co.uk (LINEWD-ES06-009). Back
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