Examination of Witnesses (Questions 10020
- 10039)
10020. Mr Lidddell-Grainger: The reason
is that at the moment I am inclined to adjourn until six o'clock.
If you can do it in five I am happy to let you do it, but if it
goes longer I would like to adjourn the Committee because we have
been sitting here for quite at some time, as you are well aware.
10021. Mr Cleovoulou: I am happy to come
back.
10022. Mr Lidddell-Grainger: Then I will
adjourn the Committee until six o'clock.
The Committee adjourned until 6 pm.
Ordered: that Counsel and Parties be called
in.
10023. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Could we
have Mr Cleovoulou?
The Petition of Mr Panayiotis Cleovoulou and
others.
Mr Cleovoulou appeared in person.
10024. Mr Cleovoulou: I guess all I want
to say is that I represent the owners and occupants of two Grade
II English Heritage listed buildings in Puma Court.[69]
For those who know Puma Court, it is very popular with the tourists.
It has been noted how they show particular regard to these buildings;
they are 1720s buildings. I guess the route that they are on is
also popular with the everyday commuters who go to and from work.
What has been really good for us is that because of this level
of popularity a lot of people who really do appreciate listed
buildings show an interest in taking up residential tenancy with
us and we really do value them. It is true to say they are not
the easiest kind of building to live in but for people who really
do appreciate them they pay what they can.
10025. We also have the benefit of having commercial
tenants with us, again, because of the locality and the nature
of the buildings; we have people that are trying to make a name
for themselves. Basically, the purpose of my petition is that
we are all concerned that the construction and subsequent use
of the tunnel is going to disrupt us in one way or another. Did
you know that the very existence of the tunnel under the buildings
is going to increase the value of our insurance premiums? If my
understanding is correct from the Promoters, and this is using
my words, it is a personal problem, it is not really their department
and it does not form part of the national compensation scheme,
so if we could somehow address that it would be very much appreciated.
10026. The other concern is for the value of
the buildings. The Promoters' response was that it would be unusual
for the value of the properties to be affected, especially with
all the precautions that would be taken with the latest mechanisms
and what-have-you. I have done a little bit of my own research
and have found out from reputable estate agents in the area, including
Tarn & Tarn, that the property values will be affected and
if vibrations do exist it will have a serious effect on the property
values. We appreciate the Promoters' feedback but at the end of
the day it is just their perception of how they think things are
going to turn out. Okay, they have done all the precautions but
the professionals in the area seem to think otherwise, so you
can understand if I come across with the point that the folder
that I have been provided with as the response to the petition
does not really give me the proper assurance that I need. I would
like to see guarantees before anything begins and to me a guarantee
means something on a piece of paper with names and signed. I do
not want to be referred to countless compensation documents that
most of us normal people do not understand. None of us wants to
go through the hassle of being inconvenienced because of a project
such as this. Do not get me wrong: I think the project is a wonderful
idea. We all understand the benefits it is going to bring to all
of us, but at what cost? We really want everybody here to give
a listening ear. If you do not mind my mentioning this point,
in Greek the word "listen", which is "akouo",
has two meanings. It means to listen with your physical ears but
also to act on what you hear, so we hope that people will take
that on board today.
10027. Regarding the issue of damage to the
buildings, I have taken on board the comments by the Promoters
that they will make good any damages that have been made; thank
you very much for that. My only question at this point is, when
you say "make good" will they be made good immediately
when the damage is done? Will they be done by the building contractors
of Crossrail or do we have to make the unnecessary expense? Does
it have to go through some kind of compensation scheme that will
take who knows how long to go through? These are genuine concerns
to which I do not know the answers.
10028. Regarding the issue of vibration to the
buildings, again, it has been on a similar note to what the Promoters
have already said. The Promoters have assured me that they have
taken all the precautions they can, especially with listed buildings,
and they were very sensitive in this regard. They have done what
they can to minimise it. Let me just give you the example of my
washing machine. We installed a good quality washing machine in
the building and the result was that the whole building vibrated,
so naturally we had to take the washing machine away. We have
been told, both by Crossrail and by other teams, that the walls
of the listed buildings are structurally sound but this does not
mean that no vibrations are going to be caused at the floor level
and we really do not want that kind of inconvenience. The vibrations
are the most serious concern to us and it is going to have an
impact left, right and centre to all the businesses, to all our
tenants. We feel that we might lose our occupational tenants and
we really do not want that. If that is going to be the case I
simply do not want the tunnel to be immediately under the property.
It is as simple as that. Of course, if Crossrail do pursue having
their way we are going to agree some kind of compensation and,
correct me if I am mistaken, but listed buildings, which are not
the same as standard, well-structured buildings, need to be given
particular consideration when it comes to compensation. It should
not be regarded in the same manner as standard compensation plans.
10029. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Mr Cleovoulou,
compensation is set not by us but by the House.
10030. Mr Cleovoulou: You mentioned that
earlier but I do not want—
10031. Mr Liddell-Grainger: I am sorry;
it cannot be taken into consideration now.
10032. Mr Cleovoulou: Okay, fair enough.
Again, with regard to the assurances, I went to the washing machine
example. We are all familiar with the Millennium Bridge. It is
a wonderful project but what happened? It started to wobble. Okay,
it was fixed at the end but the point is that it is not fair for
assurances to be made and then suddenly to find that your buildings
actually do wobble, and in the case of delicate, age-sensitive
materials it is not a flexible building, it is going to fall down.
I really do not want the tunnel under the buildings if this is
the kind of risk that we are going to be exposed to. If they can
be looked into to see how they can be shifted somewhat that would
be good. I do not know how vibrations work. Okay, I have studied
physics and I do know that vibrations travel from the immediate
vicinity, so even if the buildings are slightly away from the
tunnel it does not mean that the vibrations will not affect us.
What the level of vibrations will be I really do not know, so
if you can take that into consideration that would also be appreciated.
10033. With regard to professional fees, I understand
that this is a burden we have to undertake. Listed buildings,
especially in this location, are very valuable, but remember that
they are illiquid. They are resources—
10034. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Mr Cleovoulou,
I am going to stop you again. We have covered that; that has already
been discussed at great length. Mr Elvin and his team have already
covered that. Can we pass on to any other points you have?
10035. Mr Cleovoulou: In that case, I
do not know if I have raised every single point in the petition
response but I would just like to make the statement that all
the issues I have raised still stand. In my petition I requested
that because of the nature of the buildings we should be given
a personalised response. Every listed building owner should be
treated individually, and I think they are to some extent.
10036. Mr Liddell-Grainger: They are.
10037. Mr Cleovoulou: But what I asked
for was personal, legally binding documents. We should be told.
We should not have to go away and search for what kind of compensation
or whatever else we should be benefiting from should something
go wrong. Nobody wants this hassle. Unfortunately, for those who
knew my dad, who had been for a long time, 30 years, a hairdresser
in the area, he has now passed away and this project has come
at a very difficult time for all of us. We are still suffering
financial burdens and we really do not want to go through the
inconvenience of having to deal with compensation and we will
not be able to be paid—
10038. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Mr Cleovoulou,
I am going to bring you back, please. I think you know what I
am going to say. We have no say in that, unfortunately. I think
you are going to wind up. Are you just giving your final statement?
10039. Mr Cleovoulou: Yes, I am just
coming to the end.
69 Crossrail Ref: P89, Location of Petition 231, Mr
Panayiotis Cleovoulou and Others (TOWHLB-23013-002). Back
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