Examination of Witnesses (Questions 12920
- 12939)
12920. Ms Lieven: Sir, I would have thought,
with an issue like this, it would be more straightforward to just
proceed to call Mr Berryman to deal with that one point that he
has not already dealt with. I will, of course, cross-examine if
you want me to but I do not get the impression that that is generally
what the Committee wants. I am trying to pick up the message here.
12921. Sir Peter Soulsby: Mr Binley does
want to ask a question.
12922. Mr Binley: I am very impressed
with the unanimity of so many councils, quite frankly. Having
been in politics, as you have, for some time, I recognise how
rare and how important that particular point is. Can I ask if
there were ever any difficulties: whether you had a row and agreed
to have a vote which other people accepted, or is this unanimity
absolutely genuine and total? It is a deep plus point for me,
in terms of supporting local democracy.
(Mr Sutton) It is 100 per cent genuine and
100 per cent total. The one question that we had in our minds
was whether the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead would
balance potential local economic advantages against the negative
transport aspects of the scheme as we see it, but they have not.
The Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead has been represented
at all the ACTVaR meetings where we have discussed this scheme
and they are part of the unanimity. There is no doubt about that.
12923. Mr Binley: Then I give notice
to Mr Berryman that I have another question for him, in relation
to local democracy, which he might want to think about.
The witness withdrew
12924. Mr Deller: I would like, at this
point, to make reference to the Crossrail Timetable Working Group
report which I understand the Committee is going to discuss next
week. This was only published by the Department for Transport
on the website on Monday, so we, as a Petitioner, have had less
than 24 hours to consider this, and we have not had the opportunity
to seek specialist advice in respect of that. Our concerns remain
in respect of the proposed timetable arrangements.
12925. Work on this timetable has been modelled,
understandably and properly, on the 2004 timetable. However, I
do ask the Committee whether you are aware that a completely new
timetable has been put in place from December 2006. We would like
to know the impact of Crossrail services on this new timetable.
At this point in time it is probably impossible to answer that—
12926. Sir Peter Soulsby: The document
you are referring to is not something I am aware of. Whether it
is something the Committee will be receiving—
12927. Ms Lieven: The Committee will
be receiving it. It is the report drawn up by the Timetable Working
Group, which Mr Watson chaired, on which he will be giving evidence
next week. It has not been put before the Committee at this stage
because it is not a straightforward issue and we thought the sensible
thing was for Mr Watson to produce it and explain it with Mr Elvin.
The Committee is more than welcome to have it now but, as I explained
in opening, what I am going to do is take careful note of these
points and Mr Watson will come back to them next week. I know
there are copies of the document floating around, so we can give
it to the Committee at this stage, but I think my preference would
be that the Committee notes these points now and comes back to
them next week in their entirety. I did talk to Mr Deller about
this outside, and I think he is happy to deal with it in that
way.
12928. Sir Peter Soulsby: I think that
does seem to make good sense.
12929. Mr Deller: Yes, it was explained
to me earlier. Our frustration was that because the document was
published on Monday we were expected to raise matters today.
12930. Sir Peter Soulsby: I think, Mr
Deller, if you can make the points you wish to make, noting it
is an issue that we will be returning to in more substance.
12931. Mr Deller: The crucial thing about
the new timetable is that ACTVaR and our constituent councils
have had to lobby extremely hard to preserve our existing fast
train services, the train services that Mrs May talked about and
are listed as fast services in the evidence you have before you.
I ought to point out that—the Department for Transport and
Network Rail are the element here—those services potentially
were at risk already, and we pressed hard for those to be preserved.
We are told that they will be preserved in the new timetable.
However, our concern is that these fast services, the fast services
that Mr Berryman referred to earlier, will not exist and will
be lost completely with the introduction of Crossrail. So that
all the services from these three towns we have been talking about,
Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, will be lost.
12932. We are further concerned about the branches
serving Henley and Bourne End and from Bourne End on to Marlow,
and those services have a direct service to Paddington. We want
to know what is proposed for those particular branches and direct
services to London. Our fear, and this is really what Mrs May
was saying, is that everything east of Reading becomes a slow
service, and the economic advantage of fast services to London
will be lost by all of those towns.
12933. Our belief, by talking to our professionals,
is that following the introduction of the December 2006 timetable
the fast tracks will be restricted to 125 miles-per-hour HST non-stop
trains after Reading, non-stop trains from Maidenhead and Slough
using the relief tracks will be eliminated with the introduction
of Crossrail and journey times from stations east of Reading will
be significantly increased. Mr Berryman earlier said that from
Twyford there are seven services in the peak hour—five fast
and two semi-fast—and the two on the mainline are not affected
by Crossrail. They are. From December, those fast services will
not be on the fast lines, they will be on the relief line. That
is the new arrangement. When everything on Crossrail is on the
relief lines there is no room for those services
12934. My understanding is that Twyford, as
the particular example, currently has seven or eight services
(I took it from looking at the timetable last night—between
7am and 8am there are eight services, five to Paddington, the
fastest being 25 minutes) but post-Crossrail what is proposed
is two services only per hour to Paddington and two services on
this shuttle Reading to Slough. In the words of one railway professional:
if this happens Twyford will become a desert as far as railway
services are concerned. Twyford's problem, of course, is that
it is beyond Maidenhead in the Reading direction.
12935. I have not got the detail because the
Timetable Working Group does not provide the detail to know what
is happening to our branches to Henley and Bourne End and Marlow
because they interconnect with those services. So when you see
the Crossrail Timetable Working Group, which has a high concentration
on freight issues (which, quite clearly, are very real issues),
frankly, the conclusion I reach is that it is very dismissive
of our concerns because broadly it is going to be all right. It
depends on how you define "broadly" and it depends what
you mean by "all right". It clearly is not going to
be all right, almost certainly, in Twyford, highly unlikely in
Henley, highly unlikely in Bourne End and Marlow and you have
heard the MP for Maidenhead with views about Maidenhead.
12936. I ought to say, in relation to Slough,
we are very concerned about fast services. They had a major campaign
over this recent timetable consultation to secure fast trains
into London. That included ministerial meetings. The difference
with Slough, I believe, would be to make your own points in the
fullness of time to this Select Committee and take it as absolutely
key to have those fast services for their economic success and
benefit and positioning as a major town in the Thames Valley.
12937. So our position on this is that the work
will be examined in the weeks ahead on the timetable but we ask
you to give very close attention to that in detail as opposed
to the bland, broad statements which, I think, are in this report.
Can you particularly look at the impact of the post-December 2006
timetable, because that is the one that is taken into account
in the franchise, which will run for seven to ten years, and the
Regional Strategy for Network Rail? So it is going to be a pattern
for ten years, so it is as good a position as you can judge it
on. 2004, yes, of course, they modelled on that because that is
the only one they had but it is about to radically change, and
the relationship between the fast line and the relief tracks is
changing. I do ask the Select Committee to really dig into this
issue about which trains are going to be on which tracks from
December 2006.
12938. Sir Peter Soulsby: Thank you,
Mr Deller. Ms Lieven?
12939. Ms Lieven: Can I call Mr Berryman,
sir?
Mr Keith Berryman, recalled
Examined by Ms Lieven
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