Examination of Witnesses (Questions 13100
- 13119)
13100. Mr Binley: I know there is a question
from one of the Petitioners. Would you kindly state your name
and the Petition.
13101. Ms Skelton: My name is Marybelle
Skelton, I live out at Hanwell near one of the stations which
is not going to have any disability access. I understand that
Crossrail is doing very well in giving disability access to other
stations, but I would like to ask what are the points being looked
at? How difficult were the stairs at the stations for people in
making their decisions? At Hanwell we have three flights of stairs
to go up, about ten stairs each, and yet there is going to be
no looking at the disability access there. I think that is very
important in making your decision.
13102. I wondered if that was one of the points
you had looked at. Some stations with a few steps have accessibility
for wheelchairs but with our station it would not be possible
for people with pushchairs or elderly people because there are
so many stairs. I think this should be a big factor in making
your decision about which stations you make usable for disability
access.
(Mr Berryman) There is a fairly general rule
with stations, which is that the access from one side to the other
has to be either above the tracks or below the tracks, whichever
way you do it, you have got a flight of stairs which go the full
height of a subway or the full height of a footbridge. At Hanwell
it happens at the passageway underneath the railway. The railway
is on embankments there. As the Petitioner says, there is a difficult
flight of stairs to get up to the platforms, but this is the case
with all the stations we have looked at. There is either a difficult
flight of stairs down, which when you are coming home is a difficult
flight of stairs going up, or vice versa. The rise as Hanwell
is not significantly greater than it is at other stations. It
is probably three or four steps greater than the average. The
reason for not considering Hanwell was two-fold. First of all,
the relatively low footfall at the station and, secondly, the
engineering difficulties there are quite severe. It is a listed
building and it is on an embankment and would involve sinking
shafts through the embankment or providing some rather more complex
structures. Those were the reasons for taking it forward.
13103. Mr Binley: You did make the point
about that very footfall at Hanwell, and they are talking about
a project which is relatively far-reaching and will service the
area for many, many years, 60 years. Indeed, footfall can change
quite dramatically, as I know from my constituency in Northampton,
in ten years, let alone 60 years. How do you assess that?
(Mr Berryman) I think it is quite unlikely
that the scale of development in Hanwell would approach anything
near that which is taking place in Northampton. I am familiar
with what is happening there, it is a massive development. Hanwell
is a fairly built-up area already and there are a number of stations
quite close together. Hanwell and West Ealing are under a kilometre
apart, and Ealing Broadway is not that far away. I think there
are quite a number of stations there. There is a large area of
parkland which is very unlikely to be ever developed. They will
be growth, of course, but I would not envisage it being on a massive
scale.
13104. Mr Binley: You have considered
that?
(Mr Berryman) We have considered it. Indeed,
Mr Anderson is not here today but the whole planning of the railway
takes account of the London Development Plan and the way the population
is growing.
13105. Mr Binley: Thank you for that.
I do not want this to be a free-for-all, but I am happy to take
one more question.
13106. Ms Skelton: I just feel this is
a kind of community issue. Elderly people do not use those steps
because they cannot. I have met people who find it very difficult
to come down them and also people with pushchairs. I think it
would increase the use of the station if it was available to people.
I feel fairly strongly because I am going to have my garden destroyed
by the train, yet I am not going to be able to use it. That is
a personal issue.
13107. Mr Mould: We will be hearing from
that particular Petitioner later.
13108. Mr Binley: Do you have a response.
(Mr Berryman) Yes, the point is a general point
and that is that step free access is a community point, there
is no getting away from that. As with so many other things on
this project, we have to draw the line somewhere.
13109. Mr Binley: Can I ask a question
of Mr Maynard because I guess you have a special interest in this.
Can you put your hand on your heart and say, "Yes, I think
they have done enough"?
(Mr Maynard) As a disabled person, I would
like everywhere to be accessible yesterday, and 2016 certainly
qualifies as yesterday for London. I work in the rail industry
and the transport industry in general, and there is a limited
amount of resource; it is public resource. If it gets spent in
one place it does not get spent in another. To an extent, you
have to spread it about a bit and that involves making some pretty
tough decisions. It involves making decisions that result in some
people not getting access. If I lived in Hanwell, I would not
be using that Hanwell station, that is pretty obvious, and I might
well feel a bit annoyed about it. If I could get on a bus and
go to West Ealing or Ealing Broadway, then I might find those
more convenient anyway. I do not know much about Hanwell Station.
If it is not staffed there are many reasons why somewhere like
Ealing Broadway might not be a better place to go.
13110. Mr Mould: Unless there are any
other questions from the Committee, that concludes our presentation
on this issue.
13111. Mrs Riordan: I think the Petitioner
has a very valid point. If people are excluded from using that
station, it will reduce the use of it. If we can do anything to
make everybody accessible then this is an opportunity to do it.
I think if we can look at this again, I would be extremely grateful.
(Mr Berryman) I feel bound to say, sir, that
in Hanwell it is not just a question of money, there are some
serious engineering problems at that particular station.
The witnesses withdrew
13112. Mr Binley: The point has been
made and Mr Berryman is a compassionate man to take it on board.
Would any other Petitioner like to ask a question? No, then thank
you very much, Mr Mould. Can I ask now if Jean Lambert MEP and
others are here?
The Petition of Jean Lambert MEP and others.
Mr Francis appeared on behalf of the Petitioner.
13113. Mr Francis: I am representing
Jean Lambert, sir.
13114. Mr Binley: You are Mr Francis.
13115. Mr Francis: I am.
13116. Mr Binley: Ms Lieven, would you
like to present the background to us?
13117. Ms Lieven: I think for once the
answer is "no". The Petition is enormously wide-ranging,
it raises a station at Woolwich going to Ebbsfleet, using the
North London line, a whole gambit of issues. I think for once
the best thing would be to hear the points the Petitioner's Agent
wishes to highlight, and then to see what is the most appropriate
way of coming back on that.
13118. Some of the issues are the ones to be
dealt with next week in the railway big picture evidence. I am
obviously not going to deal with those today, but if there are
specific parts of the Petition about going to specific places,
I may call Mr Berryman. I really need to hear what Mr Francis
says in order to make any sensible response at all.
13119. Mr Binley: If I might point out,
Mr Francis, Petitioners may, according to the constitution of
this Committee, only bring up issues where they are directly affected
within a given locality. To range over a sizeable portion of the
line would not be acceptable to us. That is not my fault, it is
the way the Committee is constituted and it is my duty to make
sure that that is pursued. I have no wish to curtail you, so please
do not think that. We have got 16 minutes and because we lost
time, I will ask the stenographers if they would be willing to
stay an extra 15 minutes. We would be very grateful, and that
would give us half an hour. Can you make your presentation and
carry out the business in that time?
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