Examination of Witnesses (Questions 15505
- 15519)
Ordered: that Counsel and Parties be called in.
15505. Mr Liddell-Grainger: As usual,
I inform the Committee that it is my intention to suspend the
Committee at a convenient point after 11.30 so that the public
can have the opportunity of tasting the House of Commons coffee
in the upper hall way. I should also add that Commander Yates,
who is in another Select Committee I am meant to be on today,
may be joining us, having arrested Levy yesterday. We might have
to adjourn to get our noble and learned friends across to the
other side to help out! We have several petitioners today and
I would ask them to be as concise as they can. Normal rules apply:
I will stop you if there is any repetition.
The Petition of Hutchison Ports (UK) Limited (HPUK),
the Felixstowe Dock and Railway Co, Harwich International Port
Ltd and Maritime Transport Services Ltd.
Mr Tim Straker QC appeared on behalf of the Petitioner.
Howard Bassford appeared as Agent.
15506. Ms Lieven: May I make a very brief
opening on these petitions. They all concern the ports on the
east coast, known I think—although I am no port expert—as
the Haven ports. On this plan, 012, which you saw before with
Mr Watson, the freight routes which Mr Straker's clients are concerned
with are coming from off the screen to the east, to the Haven
ports, and coming down the Great Eastern Main Line to Shenfield
and then beyond.[1]
I am going to call Mr Berryman to deal with this Petition and
it will be his evidence that the impact of Crossrail on this particular
freight route is really minimal to non-existent.
15507. If we could put up the next plan, 013—and
it is a little bit difficult to explain and Mr Berryman will do
it infinitely better than I—the crude point is that freight
on the Great Eastern, in the vast majority of cases, moves down
the main lines.[2]
Crossrail, the Committee will remember, on the Great Eastern,
is running down the electric or relief lines or slow lines. The
important point to make right at the outset is that in terms of
the freight traffic that Mr Straker's clients are concerned about,
that is coming down the main lines and then, in order to get to
the West Coast Main Line, turns off at Stratford on to the North
London Line. The Committee will remember that there is an issue
about a pinch point at Stratford/Forest Gate for freight, but
that is not a pinch point which primarily concerns this freight
route, because it is on the main line and does not have to cross
the relief lines which Crossrail is on in order to get to the
North London Line. Mr Berryman will tell you also about certain
benefits to freight on this particular route from Crossrail, but
I will leave that up to him.
15508. In terms of the specific point that these
Petitioners are raising, we say that really the impact of Crossrail
is very, very minimal, if at all, and then there are all the generic
points, which the Committee has heard about at great length already,
by which we rely on the fact that we are going to seek an access
option and those matters. Also, sir, we rely on the general point
that, to the degree that there are pinch points on the network
for freight, they are not because of Crossrail. There are lots
of problems on the British network for freight, but they are not
caused by Crossrail and therefore they are not a matter for this
Committee and they are not a matter for this Bill.
15509. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Is there
any part of that line where Crossrail crosses the freight line?
15510. Ms Lieven: No, sir.
15511. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Is there
any reason that there will be—where the Crossrail trains
will cross over the freight line?
15512. Ms Lieven: No. I am glad you asked
that question. I asked this morning for a plan that showed the
answer to that question. I have not seen it yet, but the crucial
point is that Shenfield is out here and the relief lines/the electric
lines are to the north, and there is a bridge at Ilford. At Ilford,
the Crossrail trains cross over the main lines and come to the
south. There is no point where there is a crossing of the main
lines and the relief lines on which Crossrail impacts because
of that bridge.
15513. Mr Liddell-Grainger: There is
no reason a freight train should be slowed or in any way stopped
because of a Crossrail train.
15514. Ms Lieven: No. The only issue,
sir—and I might as well front up to this now—is that
you do get the occasional freight service on the electric lines
and where there are those well known "perturbations"—in
other words, there is a problem with the line: what we all know
as delays but what in the industry are perturbations—the
freight will, in those circumstances, sometimes come on to the
electric lines. That is why we accept there is a minimal impact.
But Mr Berryman will give evidence that that is balanced up with
the fact that at Chadwell Heath we are providing a new loop for
freight which is a clear benefit for freight. Yes, there is some
minimal impact because of the small amount of freight that gets
itself on to the electric lines, but that is balanced out by the
benefit from Chadwell Heath. Overall, we say there is residually
no impact or no detriment for this line of freight.
15515. Can I say, sir, to be absolutely clear,
that there is a different issue about Thamesport's freight coming
from Shellhaven and places like that. If one looks at this plan,
they are coming up from the south-east, and their problem is that
they have to get across these congested lines in order to get
up onto the North London Line. There is a different issue for
them, but Mr Straker is not representing those people.
15516. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Ms Lieven,
I understand. Thank you very much.
15517. Mr Straker: Sir, I will be calling
two witnesses before the Committee in a moment. Before I do so,
can I say that our understanding of the position as outlined a
moment or two ago by Ms Lieven is to the contrary, in fact, of
what she says—namely, that there will undoubtedly be places
where Crossrail will impede freight trains—and so you will
be hearing about that in a moment or two.
15518. It ought to be mentioned that it appears
already to have been accepted before your Committee that Crossrail
will make matters worse as far as freight trains are concerned.
What I have to say at this stage is in very short compass, because
what we have to say before the Committee depends upon a proposition
which we would suggest is accepted in every sensible walk of life;
namely, that when you are planning for something to happen, you
take account of the circumstances as they will be when that thing
happens. In other words, when you are planning for Crossrail,
you consider what the circumstances will be when Crossrail is
up and running. In that circumstance, you do not as a matter of
fact, therefore, need to place particular weight on what the situation
is going to be in 2004 or 2006, because that is not what Crossrail
is going to affect.
15519. The approach which I have mentioned,
which is merely common sense, is followed by the Government in
its everyday consideration of development proposals. However,
in the case of Crossrail, something rather different appears to
have been done: when asking what will be the effect of Crossrail
trains running on the limited tracks that we happen to have, what
has been considered is the present level of railway use in particular,
not the level of railway use when Crossrail comes into being.
1 Crossrail Ref: P112, Cross London Freight Routes
(LINEWD-GEN14-012). Back
2
Crossrail Ref: P112, Stratford-Forest Gate Junction (LINEWD-GEN14-013). Back
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